Biting Got Aggressive

[StephA]

Spirit has in the past 2 days gotten quite aggressive with his biting.
As you may kow we have just moved yards, 1st move for him for 2 years and it hasnt gone well atall. He is moving again in 10 days time as the people on the yard have been completely out of order (on other thread).

He has always been a nipper but only if I have been in the stable with him and not aggressively...more to amuse himself...although it still hurts when he gets me.

However the last 2 days he has really been going for me when im stood outside his stable to the point where he actually clamped down on my head last night. I am really having to dodge him and I can tell he means it. And it is over and over again...I ended up having to smack away his face away because he was stood with his head over the stable and wouldnt let me pass by snapping his teeth at my face. I have never smacked him before because of his past but it was actually dangerous for me and I put my face before a smack on the nose so no shooting me down for that please. He has never ever done this before and I am very worried that he is going to do it at his new yard.

At present yard he is in his own section and no-one has any reason to go near him but I suspect people have been going into him as my bag of carrots has been pinched and he has become REALLY headshy.

How can I curb this biting over the stable? He is fine when im in with him...

S x x

 

[capalldubh]

Move asap. He's saying he's very not happy about where he is, he's defending his space - which is something you'd expect a bit in a new place, but not to that extent. IT really sounds as if you've done the right thing (you do have to defend yourself) but if he's shouting that loud (and it sounds quite out of character) something's not right.

For the time up to when you move, you need to protect yourself - I would only get in reach if he looks calm and welcoming -if you need to play a wee game of walking towards him when he's looking happy and backing away when he looks aggressive, it might help a bit.

Are you walking straight towards him and making eye contact? I know a horse that had a real problem with this (and it was turning into a vicious cycle, because when he snapped, people's body language got more aggressive and they tried to stare him out, so he got worse etc), but it helped to teach people to approach in a less confrontational way and teach him to back into the stable if anybody came past (not saying you're doing this btw - in the case I knew it was other people in the yard, not the owner).

Is there any possibility of turnout or more turnout? He'd be less defensive of space if he had more of it and felt more secure to move away from frightening things. I do feel for you - I know a stallion owner well and she has had similar problems to you with yards (esp as people are convinced that a female can never handle a young stallion). If you want to PM me I can put you in touch with her for moral support if nothing else - I know she has managed to overcome similar problems and has wavered for a while about gelding but stuck to her guns and they are fine now
ETA - I am sure if you change the environment, he will be able to get back to his old self

 

[StephA]

Thanks alot for your reply. Good to hear im not the only person having these problems!

It IS out of character for him, he has always nipped but like I say, he has gotten really bad...bit me hard on the head again tonight. Thing is, its natural for you to put your hand out when they go to bite and I dont want him going head shy on me! The way its set out, I have to stand right in front of his door to get to my stuff so im in a perfect position for him to get me. He knows he is doing wrong because as soon as he gets me he jumps back and starts flinging his head about.

I just cant wait to get him away from this bl**dy yard

When he see's me as I walk in he is really happy to see me but then he starts lunging at me within seconds. Backs up when I open his door and is fine in stable...well...he still bites but isnt as aggressive.

He had never been turned out much with his old owner so I havnt really thought it is anything to do with that as he isnt missing lots of turnout if you know what I mean. I actually cant even turn him out where he is now because the field where he would go, the fence is down and the YO wont let any1 other than him fix it and he is useless.

Hate to see him unhappy. Getting me so down now. I know he hates it there and I cant move him for another week or so.

Would be good to hear how your friend managed!! I had been doing so well with him and felt I was really making a difference to his life...hate that people are thinking I cant manage him when I know I can. He is a darling...he is just 'misunderstood' lol!

S x x

 

[jaydevon]

to be blunt if you had given him a smack on the nose the first time he done it he proberley wouldnt of done it again, but by doing nothing you are now in danger.

done the right way a smack on the nose doesnt make them head shy. .. *ducks the stones*

 

[Pink's lady]

I rather agree with jaydedvon about the smacking - telling you his angry and ****ed off is fine. Taking agressive chucks out of you is bang out of order and a hard smack is in order. But you need to work out WHY he's doing and listen to him when he's trying so hard to tell you he's unhappy.

He had never been turned out much with his old owner so I havnt really thought it is anything to do with that as he isnt missing lots of turnout if you know what I mean. I actually cant even turn him out where he is now because the field where he would go, the fence is down and the YO wont let any1 other than him fix it and he is useless.

I think that may be almost the entire problem. He must be dying of bordum and unbelivably stressed if he spends his life in a small cage I'd be attack people too, if I was subjected to that! He's stressed and bored, sounds like he doesn't really respect you anyways (nipping is a strong sign of lack of respect), is stuck in a boring box where space is limited and he now feels he need to defend it from people he doesn't really want in his space (possibly made worse by others at your yard?). Attack is the best form of defense and all that.

Moving should really help, esp if he can get turned out. Then you need yo do plenty of grounf work and earn his respect. It sounds like this is just a rather OTT and extreme display of his lack of respect for you.

 

[StephA]

I think lack of respect is a big part of it. I have only just taken him over full time so I have wonered whether because I am now the sole carer for him he is testing his boundries with me and seeing where I am in the ranking of things.

I do take him out for about an hour a day, I know its not enough but it is alot more than he was getting 2 weeks ago.

I think another part of the problem is that as he was so badly abused in Spain I have never wanted to exert much 'discipline' on him for fear of pushing him away as I am the only person he has really let bond with him. I have probably made things worse!! Its hard to know what to do for the best.

I definately think moving will get us back on track...like you say...plenty of groundwork is in order!

S x x

 

[jaydevon]

understand what you meen . my mare was beaten and sarved for a large part of her life she had several smacks and i fully admit after going for my back over a stable door the other day she got a hard smack with a whip. i very rarely treat my horses my by hand but stood feeding her the other day she was ears back and being pushy she got smacked on the nose and told to go back, when she was being nice she got the bread,

theres situations where you can and cant hit a horse look out for a thread about me hacking.... ive never hit her whilst riding, today she got a good smack on the butt... let me just say i shant be doing that again!

with horses that are niping etc, in a heard they would be bitten back, we cant do that,

if you do smack on the nose, immdiatley stroke the face and pat the neck you punish then do something nice so every time your hand comes up the horse doesnt expect a smack., my mare despite the odd smack on the nose you can pat her all over her face, she does stands theres as much as to say ok thanks but you can stop now!

 

[StephA]

Exactly...he has scars on his nose and behind his ears where they would wrap barbed wire around his face to keep him on the spot whilst he did he movements exactly how they wanted. Its disgusting. Its made me softish on him though and thats why I think I so want him to be happy but now it feels like he is just angry at me.

Once I stand with him in the stable he is ok but if he hears some1 coming outside he is all of a bother again. It makes me wonder if some1 on the yard hasnt been in and given him a bit of a hiding

Ive put a lock on the barn door now which I dont like doing in case of emergancy (YO has key though) to stop people going into him and upsetting him.

I have loved taking neglected horses in the past and I know I have always done really well and i dont want it to change...this one is just more emotional than the rest!

S x x

 

[horseygal90]

Once I stand with him in the stable he is ok but if he hears some1 coming outside he is all of a bother again. It makes me wonder if some1 on the yard hasnt been in and given him a bit of a hiding

I would take that as territorial over defensive tbh, especially if you haven't any proof. I know it sounds silly (and it doesn't really help you much either) but I'd love to know if he carries this behaviour on into the next yard. Sorry I have nothing useful to add.

 

[jaydevon]

this is when snapper is at her worst, and will lunge for you, i think its ben made worse by hubby standing outside the door... hes not allowed to lay a finger on her, she goes for him and does nout, which is how i ended up getting bitten on the back, at my last yard i put the v shaped grills up. the fact she had less room to lunge ment she didnt shoot out of the stable at you.

i do see your point about hitting him so before doing it may be find a nose he doesnt like. like a whistle if he lunges blow it....

 

[StephA]

Well I know people have been going in because all my carrots were pinched the other day and for some strange reason some1 had dumped a big pile of dock leaves outside his door (dont know if they had put any in his stable but they better not have).
Its well weird?!

Also he is really headshy all of a sudden and he has never been headshy. I know its having a guess and I would never accuse if I didnt know for sure but you know your own horse and you know when they are scared or upset dont you? Its just a horrible hunch ive got and if some1 has gone in and he has gone to nip/bite them and they wernt expecting it (as they wouldnt) you never know how they have reacted.

Just been spending alot of time with him to keep him happy.

Im hoping he will be more relaxed at new yard...less people mooching about (private yard and only owners and daughter are on there) and really quite and peaceful

S x x

 

[jaydevon]

moving sounds like the best thing, sometimes though when a horse picks up a habit they continue it, so be ready for it,

it is hard when you dont know for sure, but well done for not accusing,

i still think you should deal with the matter asap.

 

[Pink's lady]

Smacking in that situation is an acceptable 'emergency' action but it's not going to solve the problem.

Regardless of his past he is still a horse, and needs to be treated like a horse. They want firm, black and white boundries that are obvious to them so they feel secure and happy because they know what's happening. Giving them mixed signals just confuses them.

Being all nicey nice to him and letting his walk all over you isn't going to acheive anything. Right now, more than most horses, he needs someone who's in charge and can make him feel happy and secure. Someone who's a good and respected leader so he can hand over his worries and think about food.

His past mistreatemnt means you have to be more skilled and more accurate with your communuication as he will be less tolerant of mistakes, but he can still be treated like a horse. Good and effective ground work, making his move over and away from you will really help. Punishing bad behaviour (like bitting and agressive) by driving him away, and ignoring incorect behaviour (getting it wrong) is something horses instinctively understand.

I don't think you'll get anywhere until he's leading a better lifestyle however. He needs turn out and he needs horsey company. His life up until now has be absolutly awful and with no turn out and no friends it's probably not that much better for him at present. Moving yards sounds like the very best thing you can do for him. YOU think there is a huge difference but to his mind, other than not being beaten, one box and no equine friends is pretty much the same as another box and no equine friends.

He sounds like a very angry and stressed horse who's taking it out on humans. You won't be able to break through that until you can reduce his stress as much as possible.

Once you've moves and can give him a more natural lifestyle he should be easier tyo deal with. He may never become less territorial about his box as he will always remeber being shut up in it, but if he can have more time outside it it won't matter as much.

 

[StephA]

Punishing bad behaviour (like bitting and agressive) by driving him away, and ignoring incorect behaviour (getting it wrong) is something horses instinctively understand.

He has started to respond very well (in the stable) to me just holding up a hand and he will back up. If he nips at me I have started throwing up my hands and he flings up his head and will back away...although as soon as I turn away he will try it again.

He desparatly needs one on one attention which he will be getting now...I know things take time.

Moving yards sounds like the very best thing you can do for him. YOU think there is a huge difference but to his mind, other than not being beaten, one box and no equine friends is pretty much the same as another box and no equine friends.

Totally agree. New yard he has a nice window so he can talk to old gelding next door. Nee him to show that he isnt aggressive so he can be turned out with the geldings but for now, for safety reasons, it will HAVE to be alone. Dont want him getting over excited and kicking another horse. Going to be hard for him to get used to being in close contact with other horses without him going mad with excitement.

He sounds like a very angry and stressed horse who's taking it out on humans. You won't be able to break through that until you can reduce his stress as much as possible.

Again, totally agree, its just finding people who will work with me in doing so. New yard, YO is very understanding and seems to be well up for helping me improve his way of life...to the point where she has been consulting me on how I want the stable built, who will be next to him ect Only known her a week!!! Its a blessing when you find people as concerned as yourself

S x x

 

[Pink's lady]

He sounds like he's really landed on his feet with you. He's a very lucky horse

If the hand up action works then I'd keep using it for now. It's clearly not totally effective if he's trying to nip you again afterwards, but it's probably the best you hope for for the present.

You will probably find that he'll finds turn out and other horses stressful. He may well hate his life as it is, but at least he knows it well. Better the devil we know etc. Trying to persuade him that being in a field and others horses are a good things will take time.

When he moves to his new home you could slowly build up to time out and other horses, Give him an hour of so in the field, with you there, and increase the time over a couple of weeks, until he's out all day or all night, before trying 24/7. He may well however decide he's quite happy, thank you very much, and not want to come back it Then you can slowly introduce other horses. Start over the fence then with one other quiet gentle horse in a big field. It will just take time and sensible small steps in the right direction.

Good luck with him. Your new YO sounds perfect and understanding. Def get her involved with his rehap towards being a normal horse and she should hopefully be willing to go out of her way to provide what he needs (in terms of fields and other horses esp)

 

[StephA]

He sounds like he's really landed on his feet with you. He's a very lucky horse

Thankyou very much...although I really do feel like the lucky one!

I have been walking him out all week and just sitting on the bench or the grass whilst he has a good old much! Must look so comical like im taking a masive dog for a walk!

TBH I would much rather a battle to catch him than see him cooped up and stressed! I may live to regret saying that but what the hey!

Well off to see him now...body armour on, hard hat at the ready, carrots in pocket and here I go!

S x x

 

[jaydevon]

noooooo stop the carrots.... encourages food aggression and bitting. it could also be waving the arms around making him head shy!

 

[StephA]

LOl was only messing bout carrots...they are safely in his feed bins!!

Not waving them about...its a quick make myself taller than him action and then I straight away carry on what I was doing...just makes him step away from me and think about what he is about to do...kinda works...kinda doesnt!!

S x x

 

[puzzles]

I think lack of respect is a big part of it. I have only just taken him over full time so I have wonered whether because I am now the sole carer for him he is testing his boundries with me and seeing where I am in the ranking of things.

I do take him out for about an hour a day, I know its not enough but it is alot more than he was getting 2 weeks ago.

I think another part of the problem is that as he was so badly abused in Spain I have never wanted to exert much 'discipline' on him for fear of pushing him away as I am the only person he has really let bond with him. I have probably made things worse!! Its hard to know what to do for the best.

I definately think moving will get us back on track...like you say...plenty of groundwork is in order!

S x x

Exactly, that and turnout ... neither of which any amount of smacking will solve unless you want your previously abused horse to move away from you when you raise a hand in fear of you hurting him ... that is not a 'natural' horse thing and will not gain respect.

Good luck with him

x

 

[laura jeanne]

I disagree with backing away when he is looking agressive! You have to stand your ground and make him back away. Otherwise, you are reinforcing the agressiveness.