Bit for Little Un, or other ideas

carthorse

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Jan 6, 2006
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I'm just bringing Little Un (rising 5 sec D) back into work after about three months off. He's green, I backed him last summer but mostly just hacked him quietly - he didn't like the school (deep surface in summer), he was a fairly immature 4yo & to be honest I was a little on the large side for him until he filled out a bit. However the holiday has given him time to mature & he now looks a lot stronger & more mature.

In the school he'd always had a tendancy to pull but out hacking he'd been fine so I put it down to immaturity/lack of strength. Long reining in the school he could show signs of it but not as bad, though with hindsight I think that may be because I'd given him some pretty hefty corrections in the long reins :eek:

I'm now finding the problem hasn't resolved itself with time. RI & I are toying with what to do for the best - we don't want to overbit him, particularly not at this stage, but I'm not prepared to let it ride any longer as he's going to be quite a solid little chap plus I hate horses that pull. My ID is light as a feather so I'm damned if I'm being tanked around by a rude little cob! He's naturally very forward, isn't really the brightest in the world & has enough stamina that trying to run it out of him isn't a practical option.

RI is for changing the bit but isn't sure what to. Any ideas? I was thinking full cheek single joint snaffle or even, for a short while, a full cheek waterford. I was even toying with a pelham on two reins but she's not keen on that idea & I do appreciate it would be a big change. He's presently in this http://www.shop4bits.com/item--Eldonian-by-Jeffries-Revolver-Full-Cheek-with-Lozenge--BICR23.html

I'm also toying with the idea of leaving his bit as it is but giving him a hefty tug back every time he pulls. It worked in the long reins! I know it sounds awful but do you really think it would be such a bad tactic? I'm wondering if, in my determination not to hold him to Jim's standards, I've actually let him get away with a bit too much & he just needs reminding who's in charge.

To be honest if he carries on like this then in a couple of months he's going to have no mouth left anyway & I'm going to be ready to kill the little sod. Transitions make him hotter & all the more enthusiastic about whizzing off, there's no way he's ready for lateral work yet & he'll merrily plough through poles without the slightest regard for them (don't think he's going to be that much of a jumper :rolleyes:). RI has years of experience with youngsters but she's slightly unsure of the best way to go with him now - she thinks that a lot of this is plain rudeness on his part, is reluctant to put a stronger bit in a green horse but we know the problem needs sorting sooner rather than later

Any sensible suggestions are welcome, I'd like to stop this now before it becomes a real issue.

By the way his teeth, saddle & back have been checked & aren't a problem.
 
Hi,

Firstly, realise that it takes 2 to tango. He wouldn't pull if you weren't pulling back. I looked at that link & looked up 'waterford' and they look like a pretty harsh bit. I'd definitely stay away from them. Pelhams, double bridles and the likes are for refinement of already very well educated horses, so you don't want those type either. A single jointed snaffle can be great, so long as the horse understand how to yield to pressure and the rider can guarrantee 'soft' hands. Otherwise they too can have a very harsh effect. If you want to keep a bit in his mouth, I'd stick to the double jointed one you have, as the gentlest option. I would personally teach him how to yield properly in a halter before advancing to a bit only once he was going well.

It sounds to me that it's likely the horse has just not been educated well enough for what you're asking of him. I doubt it's anything to do with 'plain rudeness'. Try to be considerate of his perspective & teach him properly, rather than blaming him. Teach him how to respond in the 'right' way, rather than getting hung up on how best to punish him for the 'wrong' thing.

There are a variety of reasons that a horse might pull or lean on pressure. Fear, discomfort, confusion... It's natural for a prey animal to resist pressure that it doesn't understand. Perhaps he wasn't confident in this environment to begin with and was reacting rather than responding? Perhaps if it's only when ridden, the saddle was causing discomfort and reactivity. Perhaps he hadn't yet learned to yield to pressure well enough for what you were asking, or in that environment(horses don't generalise well). Perhaps you haven't been great with your timing, or releasing the pressure when he 'tries', so he's learned to ignore or lean on the meaningless discomfort? Perhaps you're trying to keep 'contact' or get him to 'collect' when he's not up to that yet?

I would advise teaching him in just a halter to begin with, so you can avoid causing him pain. Start small & with the basics, only moving to You'll need to learn how to 'give' to his smallest tries, instantly, so he can learn how to yield. You'll need to be consistent & persistent, rather than jerky about your cues. Jerking on the reins, especially if the horse has a bit, will cause pain and reaction, rather than rational learning. His behaviour on long reins illustrates this - he still pulls, because he doesn't understand the pressure, but he's also hesitant, because he's frightened of possible sudden & unpredictable jerks on the reins.

I would work in an area, whether riding or on the ground, where you can ask him *gently* for a yield, with your body language/seat first, hold it and wait for a response rather than attempting to force him for safety. After giving the initial cue, take a light steady hold on the rein/s and *gradually* increase it as necessary, to a level of discomfort(not pain), until you get the slightest response in the right direction. Reinforce this response by instantly releasing all pressure. Repeat this over & over until he reliably responds to light pressure, before going on to ask for *a little* more. Work gradually in this way towards your goals, building on success. If you're not successful, take a step back and work on something a little easier before continuing perhaps more gradually.
 
I can understand where you're coming from wundahorse but I think you're over-simplifying the situation or just trying to give a textbook solution.

Short of dropping the rein on him then this little sod is pulling regardless of how soft my contact is. Drop the rein or really push the contact forward (& I've tried both more than once) & he just picks up speed. He does the same with my RI so it isn't just me. Although you wouldn't know it I can honestly say I don't take a fixed or strong contact - years of riding Jim would drum that out of anyone (learn quickly or die :eek:)! Part of me wonders if the problem I'm having is because he's too happy with the bit & has no real respect for it.

Waterfords aren't necessarily harsh, the problem I have with them is that while it may make it nigh on impossible for him to pull it isn't going to let me teach him to accept the contact so at the end of the day it feels like avoiding the issue rather than solving it. The pelham was a desperation measure but it's a bit I have, am very familiar with & am used to using with two reins. My logic was that it could be ridden on the snaffle rein unless more was needed & it wouldn't stop me teaching him to accept the contact. Also a lot of cobs do seem to respond very well to pelhams for some reason.

Trust me, he's quite well enough educated to do what I was asking of him. In particular walk to halt in a soft manner is not beyond his understanding or abilities! He seemed to "understand" a lot better going away from the gate too. No, I'm sorry but he's definately trying the boundries.

As I said before all likely areas of discomfort have been checked. Furthermore they've always been checked, he's never been asked to work when uncomfortable.

He's good to handle & good to long rein. But when RI & I were chatting about this I did realise that he took a couple of sessions to teach manners in the long reins & his handling is only good if he thinks the handler won't be bullied - if he thinks he can he'll walk all over people. This is why we wondered if he needs a slightly stricter approach under saddle - as a poster put on another unrelated thread maybe it's time he realised that actions have consequences. It's just I don't like teaching these lessons. Incidentally he only pulls in the long reins if he thinks the handler isn't paying full attention or he's seen a lapse that he can take advantage of - he's usually soft & accepts the rein.

No offence but I think your last paragraph suggests that you really don't understand how we've been working with this lad so far. You're pretty much describing what we've been trying (& tried for months last year) & it's failed. We haven't ever been looking for the quick fix but it would be nice to get somewhere before he dies of old age!
 
I can understand where you're coming from wundahorse but I think you're over-simplifying the situation or just trying to give a textbook solution.
Not text book, but probably oversimplifying. I find these issues have so many ifs & buts, and I only know the bit you've told, that it's often very hard not to. Having so little to go on, I don't assume I know how you are with him, but have suggested what might be happening. Sorry if this came across as me assuming.

Short of dropping the rein on him then this little sod is pulling regardless of how soft my contact is. Drop the rein or really push the contact forward (& I've tried both more than once) & he just picks up speed. ...This is why we wondered if he needs a slightly stricter approach under saddle - as a poster put on another unrelated thread maybe it's time he realised that actions have consequences.

I agree with your last comment completely. If horses don't get immediate effective consequences to their actions, then how are they to learn what is Right & Wrong? This doesn't have to mean getting harsh though, and I wouldn't address it with a 'bigger' bit(to create a painful consequence). I suspect lack of these on some situations has led to him possibly being less educated(understanding) than you may think. Perhaps he's on the whole well trained, but there have been some small holes in the foundations that have led to other issues? - Again, only speculating on your comments.

I personally start(or re-train) horses in a halter and only move on to a bit when they're working well without it. Likewise I only move to constant contact after they're doing well on a loose rein. I find it's a clearer & better reinforcer for teaching to do the above - drop the reins when they do what you have asked. It also stops them 'taking a mile' and they learn to stay in gait until asked, even when you're 'apparently' not paying attention. But I'm ready to pick it up the instant the horse gets faster, to provide uncomfortable(not painful) consequences to his action, and I start in an enclosed environment, where it's safe to set it up and wait for the response. I also find in these situations(providing it's taught first & not forced) that using one rein to bend the horse is more effective than pulling back with 2.

I'm not trying to say the above is The Way. It's just my way & I think it's the best for me & what I want to achieve. There are many different specifics, tools, techniques you could change, but I think the principle are of vital importance. That is, providing effective instant consequences(good, as well as unpleasant) and making sure it's never painful and you don't completely block his reactions & responses(rather you just make them difficult or easy/rewarding depending on the behaviour), so you give him choice.

Which reminds me to mention it's possible the horse has a big issue with bits in general(as opposed to wrong shape/size, tooth issues, etc). See Dr Cook's site for more on possible bit issues. It is possible(I've had it happen on a few occasions with 'rogue' horses) that just removing the bit from the equation without further training may have the desired effect. Not saying this is common tho - they usually take a bit of time & effort.

No offence but I think your last paragraph suggests that you really don't understand how we've been working with this lad so far. You're pretty much describing what we've been trying (& tried for months last year) & it's failed. We haven't ever been looking for the quick fix but it would be nice to get somewhere before he dies of old age!
No offense taken. I agree I have virtually no idea how you've been working. I only had what you told to speculate on. ...Tried squinting into the screen, but just can't get any more:D It's good to hear you seem to have covered a fair few bases already.
 
Hi - I'm not experienced in respect of bitting but you may find the following link useful.

http://www.informedbitting.com/

My lad was ridden in a waterford with dutch gag cheekpieces and a flash as that's what he came with and I was told he had a tendancy to lean on the bit. He's a former hunter and previous owner needed more brakes than I do. I always thought the combination of mouthpiece cheeks and noseband was overkill for a happy hacker and didn't know what bit to move to. The above website has been really helpful to me. You can e-mail them for advice and they'll tell you exactly what will suit you and your boy. Waterfords aren't harsh, it's how you use them but I'm scaling back to one with snaffle rings.
 
If it worked on the long reins it should work with you on board. You obviously didnt yank his gob because he still accpets the bit. And from the sounds of it yoou have enough knowledge and soft enough hands.
From your posts you no what you need to do just are unsure because he is a baby, but babies have to grow up one day. You have tried softly softly and that doesn't always work.
 
Sorry if I sounded snappy wundahoss, I think I may have been taking some pf my frustrations out on you in my reply :eek:. I'd run out of cushions to beat, the OH just doesn't get it& for all my talk pony beating doesn't sit well with me. I shouldn't be such a baggage when you'd taken the trouble to type out such a long reply to limited facts though. It's hard giving enough info without sending readers to sleep & there's no way of accurately saying how he reacts - my idea of acceptable may be your idea of too strong & someone else's soft. Anyway I'm waffling, what I meant to say is thanks & sorry!

Sparklyspurs, thanks for the link & your experiences.

HotchPotch I think your right, I know what's neded but it's not what I lik. It's not that he's a baby (& as to that I think stroppy teenager would be closer to the mark :rolleyes:) but more that it goes against everything I do & it seems like admitting failure to do it.


Anyway yesterday he had a last chance in his current bit. I had my RI there to watch so before anyone gets upset I'd just like to say that at no point were we unfair to him & he never got upset or worried. I was extremely strict in the long reins & any though of pushing the boundries was jumped on. He wasn't at all impressed & had quite a little strop before settling down. Then did the same under saddle. He couldn't quite believe it, wasn't impressed & put his point of view across very clearly! He finally softened & stopped arguing, at which point we did one nice circle with lots of praise & got off. However RI reckons he hadn't given in, rather he was just trying to think of a new tactic - luckily he isn't the quickest thinker!

Today I borrowed a friend's wilkie & just long reined him. It has a single joint & quite a thin mouthpiece so very different for him. He was very good to begin with, you could see him thinking & watching so obviously yesterday had made some impression on him, then he suddenly launched himself against it. And stopped. Quickly. He didn't try again was as as sweet, light & responsive as I could wish for for the rest of the session. I'll probaly long rein in it again tomorrow then ride on Monday when I'm quite sure that he's accepted it.

Interestingly I've spent some time watching him in the field the last couple of days & he's started pushing his luck with Jim too. Before he'd be very submissive to him & in return Jim acted very much as protector. Now he's starting to stand up for himself, eg if he's eating the hay & Jim comes over he won't immediately move off until asked back & a cuple of times has even suck his ears back or lifted a hind. Jim was initially ignoring this or just shoving him out the way (a 14.2 welsh cob is no match for a well muscled 16.3 ID, not that LU always seems to realise this) but now he's getting a bit short with him & the shoves are getting harder, being backed up with a hard nip & he's not getting invited back for quite some time. It sounds silly but this almost made me feel better because it seems he's just feeling his feet & tesing limits in general rather than me in particular. He'll learn.
 
Have you tried asking the dentist, she was great when i was having bitting problems


maybe a set iron french link loose ring or something along those lines as the loose ring stops the grab and go and sweet iron is nice for youngsters and increases salivation.

(im just going on what i have been told :eek:)
 
5.7FB+16.2FC (where did your name come from :confused:, I've always wondered about it) that isn't so different from what he's in except for the loose rings. I don't doubt he'd like it, I'm not so sure he'd be polite in it!

beki x-x if I haven't found a solution I may ask the dentist if he's got any ideas next time I get him out. I think the loose ring action won't be enough, he doesn't grab the bit - that would almost be easier to fix - he just sets, pulls & goes through it. Likewise he isn't dry in the mouth, he normally has a little bit of white lippy on ;)

I'll stick with the wilkie for a few while & see what happens. Too much chopping & changing won't do him any good & judging by his reaction today he at least has some respect for this for now.
 
I think your right, I know what's neded but it's not what I lik. It's not that he's a baby (& as to that I think stroppy teenager would be closer to the mark :rolleyes:) but more that it goes against everything I do & it seems like admitting failure to do it.

Again, you can be clear & consistent with 'immediate consequences' without being harsh. One big part of this is making sure any 'Right' behaviour is met with immediate good consequences - reward. That doesn't mean removal of pressure, or something meaningless like 'praise' or patting, but ensuring it's something the horse *truely likes*, like food treats or a good scratch on a favourite spot.

He finally softened & stopped arguing, at which point we did one nice circle with lots of praise & got off. However RI reckons he hadn't given in, rather he was just trying to think of a new tactic

I think perhaps this is where you're going wrong. Instant reinforcement means the instant he does what you ask, not one circle later. If you keep asking for more after he responds, he won't know what it is that you like, so of course will keep 'trying to think of a new tactic' that will work for him. Make the 'right' things easy, make them work for him & only make the 'wrong' things more difficult. Only once he's reliably learned the basics should you gradually begin asking for more.

then he suddenly launched himself against it. And stopped. Quickly. He didn't try again was as as sweet, light &

If you're going to use punishment, this is a good, apparently effective example of it's use... You set up the situation so that he caused himself instant pain with his behaviour, and as the pressure didn't continue when he changed his behaviour, he has hopefully learned how to avoid future pain.

I personally disagree with using pain to train though, unless it is some emergency situation which is necessary for safety. It is enough to cause mild discomfort(when necessary), so the horse chooses the easiest option and then learns to repeat it because the Good behaviour is reinforced. I think this is far more effective in the long run(painful punishment can have instant results, but is often only temporary) and avoids causing bad associations with you & your 'toys & games', rather than forcing the point through pain & fear of pain.
 
The trouble is wundahorse virtually everything under saddle has been done by rewarding the slightest try (a scratch, finishing straight away, a sweet) but he doesn't seem that bothered & he certainly isn't progressing that way. The praise he got for getting it right was instant & he got lots more praise & scratches on the circle. I don't feel it's unreasonable to ask a rising 5yo to walk a 20m circle in a reasonable fashion & it gave us a couple of minutes to keep making a lot of him for doing the right thing. As I said before, if we go much slower with him he's going to be retired before he ever gets into work!

I won't use pain, or even discomfort, if it's possible to reasonably avoid doing so. However I won't be ignored or carted either. Ignorance I can forgive but this isn't ignorance. Also watching how Jim's handling him at the moment suggests I'm not the only who thinks he's got a slight attitude problem and it seems Jim has no hesitation in using some pretty drastic pain & discomfort to get him trained in polite behaviour :eek:

God knows Jim had his problems - to the extent that a very well respected professional said he may never be rideable! - but at least he always wants to please me. LU really couldn't give a stuff, I think the only reason he's good hacking is he thinks exploring is fun & it isn't that much of a bother to take me along too. Oh I shouldn't complain, at least he's a damn good hack unlike dear neurotic Jim who just doesn't think the great big world is a safe place to be.
 
The trouble is wundahorse virtually everything under saddle has been done by rewarding the slightest try (a scratch, finishing straight away, a sweet) but he doesn't seem that bothered & he certainly isn't progressing that way. The praise he got for getting it right was instant & he got lots more praise & scratches on the circle.

I do think I understand where you're coming from, and don't intend to insult or anything. It sounds like you're doing OK generally, just that he's a trickier character than you're used to! Your approaches sound reasonable generally, but perhaps you need to tighten up your timing & strengthen your attempts of positive reinforcement with him more than you have found necessary with other horses.

When 'rewarding the slightest try', how instant is it? You really need to give the reinforcement(positive or negative) *at the time of* the behaviour you want to effect. A second or more later is too late for the horse to make the connection. Obviously, depending on what you're doing & using as reinforcement, it is tricky or impossible to reinforce in a timely fashion... unless you use a 'bridging signal' to buy you a little time.

That is, associate the reinforcement with a signal, such as a click, whistle, sharp, distinctive sound, so that you may communicate the precise moment when the horse 'did right'. You do this initially by just giving the signal *at the time* you give a treat or such. After much repetition, you can 'test' how well the horse has associated the signal to the reward by signalling first and see if this causes the horse to startle & pay attention to you - at which time you can start giving the signal just before the treat. Lots of repetition will reinforce the association, then you can use the signal to mark 'good' behaviour, letting the horse know what has earned him a reward, when you're not in a position to provide instant reinforcement.

Positive reinforcement = addition of something desirable in order to strengthen a behaviour. Praise, patting, etc. can be used as above, as a 'bridging signal', but they aren't genuine positive reinforcers of themselves for the horse. They are not something the horse enjoys or wants to earn, and are essentially meaningless at best(unless taught as a bridging signal) and patting can actually be punishment for a horse who finds it unpleasant or alarming because they haven't been desensitised to it. In many cases, this can also apply to any touching or scratching(I find that many horses don't initially like it, at least until they're trusting). Positive reinforcement or reward is something that is desirable to the horse, something that the horse does really like.

If he 'doesn't seem bothered' by intended positive reinforcement(reward, Good Stuff), then it's either not really desirable to him or your timing is out & he cannot connect the goodie to the behaviour. If he doesn't respond to pressure/negative reinforcement, then either your timing's out & you're not releasing the pressure quickly enough, or the 'pressure' is remaining in some other way so he's getting little reinforcement. Eg. if the saddle, your riding, the bit, contact, whatever is unpleasant to him.

I don't feel it's unreasonable to ask a rising 5yo to walk a 20m circle in a reasonable fashion & it gave us a couple of minutes to keep making a lot of him for doing the right thing.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a horse of any age - even a few months old foal - to do this provided they have been taught effectively to do it. I don't believe this horse is up to that yet. As explained above, your intended positive reinforcement may be rather meaningless, and if you're making him do something that he finds unpleasant at the same time as you're 'making a lot of him', then this tends to negate the positive reinforcement. In fact, depending on the situation, you can actually cause the 'reward' to become seen a punishment.

It seems that you may be asking things of him because he's 'already' 5yo & you think he 'should' be doing this or that by that age. I would suggest forgetting his age and forgetting where you think you 'should' be and work gradually from where he's at now. That way, you'll probably get to your goals quicker anyway :D

Again, I mean no offense in what I have written above, only trying to help. I'm also not likely to take offense if you disagree with me:rolleyes:. It's through debating these things that we learn new methods & principles, you & me both!
 
Update

Well after long reining a couple of times in the wilkie I rode LU in it today. What a difference! No leaning, he was soft in the neck & shoulder, listening & trying. RI was very happy with him & I actually enjoyed riding him. He even had a trot without trying to race off &/or pull! Ok, it's slightly all or nothing at the moment but we can deal with that later, I certainly don't want to confuse the issue at the moment. The main thing is we've found something he can learn in without a fight. Now he can start doing his hacking again too & that will fitten him up & get some weight off him but I wasn't going to hack with dodgy brakes :eek:

Maybe he just needed to realise that there was an iron hand in the velvet glove - hopefully he'll now accept that behaving is the way to go. He also seemed a lot happier to be out there today so I'm fairly sure a couple of sharp lessons haven't worried or upset him. I really do need to remember that he isn't as overly sensitive as Jim :eek:
 
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