Behind the bit

T

Tabitha123

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Dec 5, 2008
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Wiltshire
My lovely mare is improving fast - at long last. We have a fab new teacher and it's made a huge difference to both of us. However, we're having a few 'contact' issues. It's never been her strong point but it's getting to the stage where I feel it's beginning to hold us back. She responds well to rein vibration but as she starts to loosen up following lateral work she can occasionally start to drop behind the bit. I think originally it started as her trying to find her balance as her suppleness improved, but as soon as I ask her to move herself forward again into the contact she tries to put her head back up in the air and it takes a while to re-establish a good contact.

It's not a huge problem - we still often start by walking around the school like a giraffe, then varying between on the bit, and then behind the bit - with more time on the bit than off it. But the dropping behind the contact is one I'd like to nip in the bud before it gets too established.

What's other people's experiences with this and youngsters? How can I improve it?

She's currently ridden in a KK Ultra, but I'm beginning to think about putting her back in her happy mouth for a session or two.

Any thoughts?
 
with a youngster Id be tempted to think it was due to her still being lacking ever so slightly in balance and using that slight overflex to compensate for it. Or, it could be that she needs an ever so slightly softer contact with your hands.

How old is she ? and how long has she been working ? Could just be that she isnt physically ready to maintain a contact for any length of time.
 
First thing I thought of here is have her teeth and back been checked?

If she's under 5 then she needs to see an EDT/BEVA every 6 months, also she will still be growing also so back issues can crop up.
 
She's a green 6 year old. Been in work on and off for about a year, but properly into work for about 6 months (how time flies it only seems like two months ago). She is unbalanced and I think you're right it is still a work in progress - so it's may be something I need to just work on as part of her overall schooling. Her back and teeth are checked very regularly. I try to let her stretch regularly througout a session in the school.

Any suggestions on how I can help improve it? Do I push her forward and run the risk of going above the bit? Should I drop the contact? Or Raise my hands a little?
 
Ditto both of the above. Being behind the bit often means that the horse isn't powering through enough from behind and could be more 'forward' but considering that your horse is still quite green, lunging or long-reining in elastic side reins may encourage her to take a stronger contact with more forgiving reins. When youngsters are initially broken-in, their riders are at times discouraged from touching their mouths due to their sensitivity which, if this is the case for your horse, could mean that she has not eben educated right from the start to accept a contact. So it may be that your horse just needs more time being educated and developing physically doing the exercises you are currently using: I'm glad you encourage her to stretch as i think this is brilliant for encouraging a horse to take the contact forward, move forwards and develop better balance. :) What bit is she in? It may be that se feels uncomfortable and could do with a rubber or sweet iron mouthpiece to increase her comfort and thus encourage her to take a contact.

x
 
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Tabitha123 said:
Any suggestions on how I can help improve it? Do I push her forward and run the risk of going above the bit? Should I drop the contact? Or Raise my hands a little?
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Do not under any circumstances raise your hands to cure this. It will make it worse. Only real way to cure problem is to send horse forward. If she goes above the bit so be it. When you send forward use a very quick double nudge rather than a big squeeze. Chances are she will raise her head without shooting forward.
 
My horse has started ducking slightly behind the contact in situations that he find more difficult, such as tighter movements. My RI has me raising my hands, quite pronouncedly, when he does it, also pushing forwards at the same time. It seems to be helping - a lot if it is down to him not being saupple enough to easily carry himelf through these movements, but, as you say, I don't want to allow it to become a habit.

Also, make sure that you are not asking too much - do you need to vibrate the reins, or could you just ask her forward into a soft hand? As my horse has understood that he is to work in an outline when asked, the actuall ask needs to be toned down a lopt - this was one of my problems which got us into this situation. I had to re-assess my riding based on his higher level of education and make things a lot more subtle and quiet.
 
DavidH said:
Do not under any circumstances raise your hands to cure this. It will make it worse. Only real way to cure problem is to send horse forward. If she goes above the bit so be it. When you send forward use a very quick double nudge rather than a big squeeze. Chances are she will raise her head without shooting forward.
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Oh cross posted with this - DavidH is what my RI asking me to do wrong then?
 
Lucyad said:
DavidH is what my RI asking me to do wrong then?
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Yes. If you think about what happens to the bit when a horse comes behind...the action is taken off the bars more to the corner of the mouth. It is an evasion of the bit. By raising your hands you are taking the bit even further off the bars, pretty much the same effect as giving away the contact completely. Sure the horses head will come up but if you think about what you are trying to achieve, you want the horse to work forward in to a consistent contact. The only way to teach a horse this if it goes behind the bit is to keep the contact (assuming it wasn't too strong in the first place) and push horse forward in to it.
I think you'll find that its the action of you pushing that is helping, raising your hands will simply slow the rate of progress with a mixed signal.
 
I tend to agree with DavidH on this one. Just be aware that some of it is almost certainly a lack of strength & balance & I wouldn't be correcting it at the expense of forwardness & rhythm because when she's more established in these the outline may largely correct itself. The most important thing, IME, is to keep a quiet still contact & ride up to it - no fiddling, no pulling & always leg first.

You may also find it useful to try a different bit. I've found a mullen mouth useful in correcting this as, being very still in the mouth, it encouraged the horse to almost lean on the bit a little & take the contact forward. Obviously it depends on the horse, the one this worked for is a slightly strange case & had no physical problems so it was just a case of finding something he'd accept. He now accepts another mouthpiece too but if I put a different rider up he immediately drops behind the contact & opens his mouth until he's convinced they can be trusted :rolleyes:
 
Thanks folks - I'm going to try swopping her back to her happy mouth straight bar bit for a while.

Lucyad - mine's the same - now that we've increased the difficulty of the work she's drops behind the bit.

DavidH - I try and do the double nudges most of the time, but she doesn't always cotton on to the fact she needs to move forward from it. When she drops behind the bit it's (this is going to sound silly) but it's like she's concentrating so much on what I'm asking her to do. she forgets what the forward button is for! Is this likely to just be a phase as we work through it? Bless her - I do think she's trying bery hard to understand! :)
 
Remember it is an evasion, not a nasty one, just a case of horse finding a release from what is being asked. When you press the forward button you are effectively asking the horse (from their point of view) to move away from the happy place they have found hence the reluctance. The worst think you can do at this stage of training is to allow her to ignore a forward request.
 
If you read any of Philippe Karl's books or watch his dvd's, you will find that he recommends raising the hands to fix overbending. He is ex-Cadre Noir, as is my own instructor, who also recommends raising the hands. The Cadre Noir are some of the finest classical horsemen in the world - well, the older ones are, anyway, lol! ;)

Dr Gerd Heuschmann, qualified German Bereiter, qualified and practising equine vet, and biomechanical expert, also recommends raising the hands. Please read his book, watch his dvd, or better yet, see him in person to understand why.

Your RI is not wrong. I use this method myself, as do my pupils, and it does work. You need to have the jaw relaxed, the poll open and the neck long in order for the horse to work correctly - any sort of strong, backwards contact with the bit will not achieve correct work.

Interesting that comment was made about where the bit should act - it should *never* act on the bars and the tongue. Those are two of the most sensitive parts of the horse's body, and a strong pressure here *will* cause pain. The aim should always be to have the bit acting on the corners of the lips.

I watched a two day conference recently with Dr Gerd Heuschmann and Dr Svend Kold. They are both practising vets, and jokingly said several times that bad riding earns them money! Horses do and will go lame, or lack performance, if they are allowed/encouraged to go overflexed with locked backs and fixed jaws. Biomechanically, they cannot do it.

Putting more pressure on and keeping a low hand and "riding the horse into the contact" will block the back, tense the neck and most certainly lock the jaw. Your horse physically cannot perform well like that.

Please listen to your instructor, and to the experts who have studied the biomechanical and physical effects on the horse of various types of training, and lift the hand to raise the head and open the poll. :)
 
jenb said:
Interesting that comment was made about where the bit should act - it should *never* act on the bars and the tongue. Those are two of the most sensitive parts of the horse's body, and a strong pressure here *will* cause pain. The aim should always be to have the bit acting on the corners of the lips.
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Mechanically impossible for bit not to act on bars if horses head is in vertcle position given the position of a rider and the angle of reins between bit and hand. Only way the bit could not act on the bars is if the angle of the rein was at 180 degrees to the mouth.

And who said anything about strong pressure or increasing pressure?
 
DavidH said:
Mechanically impossible for bit not to act on bars if horses head is in vertcle position given the position of a rider and the angle of reins between bit and hand. Only way the bit could not act on the bars is if the angle of the rein was at 180 degrees to the mouth.

And who said anything about strong pressure or increasing pressure?
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The idea is that you mobilise the jaw sufficiently so that the horse is truly relaxed and supple along his topline and muscle system, so that when the horse offers (and he must offer, it cannot be insisted upon by the rider) the vertical head carriage, he is soft through the mouth and willing to have a conversation with the rider down the rein. Most horses mouth conformation is such that the bit will rest on the lips, and not make contact with the bars or tongue unless pressure is put down the rein. The bars and tongue normally sit below the level of the lips. However, it does not take much pressure to compress the lips and have the bit acting on the tongue and bars, hence the need for a relaxed jaw and a soft horse. I do a lot of in hand work with my horse and it's surprising how hard it is to keep the bit still, quiet and only acting on the lips - especially with an easily distracted 5yo, lol!

To my mind, "keeping the contact and pushing the horse forwards into it" implies an increase in pressure. Maybe I have misunderstood. But surely, even if the rider does not consciously increase pressure on the reins, "pushing the horse into the contact" will result in an increased pressure on the bit when the horse obeys your request to go forwards? I'm willing to stand corrected here :)

The phrase "push the horse into the contact" is one of my pet hates. It just conjures up images of riders having tense reins, nagging legs and horses with short necks, overbent and quite often gaping mouths. GH made much of having a "friendly" contact on the reins, and not HOLDING the reins too much.

Interestingly, he also said that from what he had seen, English riders tend to ride with one length of rein, whatever! I'm ashamed to say that most of the clinic riders he had did little to dispel his findings. Kind, sensitive hands are rare to see, sadly.
 
Very interesting thread :)

Molly Moo is using this as her latest evasion trick. She used to throw her head up to avoid contact and rush off, now she tucks her nose in to her chest and refuses to move forward unless you give the contact away entirely.

Lots of food for thought here for me, she is not a youngster, but is re-learning (and bloody devious ;)) :)
 
This thread brings up a lot of questions, such as the whole point behind contact (do you need it? why?) which I think depends wholly on how far along in training the horses and rider both are. What could be a quick reminder to a schooled, conditioned horse could be confusing and an irritation to a novice --- and I include the rider in this. I believe it takes a lot of time to develop a consistent, sympathetic contact, and that the way to get there includes a lot of releases. I'm trying this (for the first time, having been trained in the firmer, Germanic methods) and my horse is really responding, actually looking for the bit now, when she too started as a giraff! It's taking longer than I like, I confess, but I think that's my fault.:eek:
 
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