Another summer without riding - REMEDIAL FARRIER REPORT NOW VISIBLE

This isn't actually about shod v barefoot though is it? It is all about getting YOUR horse sound and comfortable, whatever method is deemed best for a good resolution.

I think your professionals, if they be vet, farrier or podiatrist all need to be reminded to keep this in mind. This isnt the time for professional egos to be massaged is it, its time to compare notes and come up with the right way forward in this particular instance. Never mind what either party might normally have as their own preference, it is what will help Ziggy the best that is crucial here IMO.
 
Perhaps I was extremely lucky in my young vet who treated the cob she was happy for my trimmer to care for her feet.
He was more than willing to meet and chat as was she had that need arose.

She had flat soles in all four feet and was not hopping lame, more three tenths so and maybe its because we knew this would happen that meant they worked together? Hopping lame my brain tells me an abscess, laminitus or a chip or break.
 
Quite right cortrasna. Given Ziggy's previous history to shoeing its important to discover whether the immediate recommendation for remedial shoeing is due to general protocol rather than as what's best for him.
 
As if it wasn't stressful enough having Ziggy in pain, having to question the professionals involved is just mind blowing. I found the dick vet in Edinburgh very diplomatic in their suggestions re shoeing and barefoot. Are you claiming from insurance? Maybe be worth discussing with them re a second opinion if they allow it.

I admire your approach re vet and trimmer knocking their heads together on your behalf. Did I miss you speaking to Trevor yet, has he given an opinion on the situation?
 
Cortrasna said:
This isn't actually about shod v barefoot though is it? It is all about getting YOUR horse sound and comfortable, whatever method is deemed best for a good resolution.

I think your professionals, if they be vet, farrier or podiatrist all need to be reminded to keep this in mind. This isnt the time for professional egos to be massaged is it, its time to compare notes and come up with the right way forward in this particular instance. Never mind what either party might normally have as their own preference, it is what will help Ziggy the best that is crucial here IMO.
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This is exactly what it should be about in all cases - there is no right or wrong way by text book - just right or wrong by the horse in question.

That was a very well written email Jane - I hope you get the support that they ought to provide. It is not easy having a sick pony, it's its even less easy when you feel as though you have to question the source of advice - it makes me ever grateful for finding a vet who can compromise even if it took a while!!

I am thinking of you, keep us posted xxxx
 
I too agree with Cortrasna - I think she is spot on.

I hope whichever way you decide to go that Ziggy comes sound and soon.
 
Maybe his discomfort when being shod was due to low level laminitis that hadn't been identified?

I'm not going to get into the farrier v trimmer, shod v barefoot arguments. I know what I'd do but as an intelligent adult it's up to you to do your research & make your own decisions. Whatever you decide I hope Ziggy is more comfortable soon x
 
I have no advice, I just wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you and Ziggy and I hope that you make some sense out of all this soon. The worst thing about dealing with horses is the 101 different opinions on everything.
 
Oh dear that all sounds as clear as mud for you.

I am not sure on the history as not been here,but sudden onset pain and pus in the foot would scream abscess to me,especially as it's been such a god awful year for them.

I know long toes can cause issues (my cob had them in shoes funnily enough,ridiculously so and was actually one of the reasons I took him out of shoes when I got him),but that would seem like a longer term problem and not the cause of sudden acute lameness??

Well you have the x rays to work from now,just need to get all your opinons in and do what your head and gut tell you.

There is no big deal with having him shod if that helps him even just for now,but I think you're wise not to rush into it.Can take a long time to get decent hoof/foot quality back after shoes with some horses.

I have considered shoes recently with Marb's foot deformity and comfort levels,thought it would help with his sole pain and support while he grows the hoof back down,but just can't bring myself to take the plunge and not sure any farrier would be willing to nail onto a hoof with such a lot of it missing anyway so saves me the decision,wuss that I am:redface:

I don't envy you the position,but I will be keeping everything crossed that you get good advice and that your vets will be willing to consider your thoughts and preferences:smile:
 
My vets up here are all very closed about barefoot, however my vet when I was in Cardiff actually went on a barefoot trimming course and strongly supported barefoot where possible...wish more vets were like him.
 
Sorry to hear about poor Ziggy's problem - I have had similar issues with vet v trimmer, though our vet is not anti barefoot.

If the toe was growing away from the pedal bone I would have thought you would see a stretched white line in the toe or it would be obvious from the length of the sole from toe to frog, in the absence of that then your trimmer would have no reason to suspect there was anything wrong - indeed if there is anything wrong!

The onset of sudden lameness and pus from the hoof just shouts abscess - I have also had differences of opinion over the treatment of these, the vet's standard treatment seems to be bute and box rest + poultice. I have found that less bute so the horse is just aware of the pain and exercise (the slight pain will stop them hooleying about) is much better at getting the abscess out quickly and is less stressful for the horse - especially one that stresses if kept in, like Scully!
 
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If the toe was growing away from the pedal bone I would have thought you would see a stretched white line in the toe
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You might, but that's not always the case.
 
Having been through this I was astounded when the vet called me in to see the X rays - I was amazed and relieved there was no rotation, from the outside and from the underneath of the foot - bearing in mind he was having post lammi remedial and had already abcessed a couple of time post lammi - there was no reason to suspect what was happening inside - he was tripping very occasionally he was never severley lame just a bit footy first couple of days post trim - other than the odd step after that was coming on - I was fortunate that my vet questioned the odd step as not quite right and suggested X rays- we were in the insurance period post his episode so luckily the costs were covered - the vet was suprised he was not showing more lameness but his tendons and soft tissue etc had simply adjusted to the foot- He had no hesitation in discussing with my farrier and myself to get a plan in place and at no point did he aportion blame - his interest was purely in the ponys welfare and future soundness - we kicked ourselves not having x rays straight after his attack before we started remedial and god forbid hehad another it would be done. We had sympathetic remedial trimming lowering heel and bring in the toe - 2 weekly at first - the vet was concerned for the tendons, ligaments and soft tissue - doing a radical may have resulted in unreversable damage to those - 6 months of build up took longer to reverse - You must insist on consultaion with all parties and gave a plan that you all work to - we had a lost of post trim in hand and exercises to do - he also had massage to help with the changes.

I am sure they will sort but frommy experience I find it difficult to believe the sudden severe onset of lameness is due soley to the position - have they indicated degregation or chipping damage to the tip of the pedal bone or infection in that area that would account for pus if they are suggesting not abcess? but would probably display similar symptons - abcess/infection - pus build up and pressure = pain = lameness - I do hope they get on this as quickly as possible - we had first remedial trim the day after Xrays - the plan was in place the same day, egos are not the priority.
 
X ray and reply from vet just in

I haven't even read this properly so have no idea how I will respond, but here's what the vet said:

"Thank you for your email yesterday. I am more than happy to clarify my reasons for recommending remedial farriery for Ziggy and answer any questions that you have regarding the course of treatment I outlined to you yesterday. I am also more than happy to discuss Ziggy with Trevor Jones and would be grateful if you could give me his number again so that I can get in touch with him.
To clarify what I think has lead to the current lameness that Ziggy has, he has clearly had a previous episode of laminitis that Trevor had picked up based on the widened white line, this is much more clearly seen radiographically (images attached) and the rotation of the pedal bone and change in the dorsal hoof wall that has resulted is obvious. While the external hoof shape appears to be good the xray reveals that as the pedal bone is rotated the internal structure does not ‘match up’ with the hoof wall hence the elongated toe.
The abscess has resulted from the white line being enlarged and weak either as a result of dirt getting pushed in and setting up a true abscess but more likely, as you described the pus as clear and not smelling, the defect at the white line has developed a space in the laminae that has lead to a pocket of fluid forming causing the same effect but not as a result of an infection (sometimes called a sterile abscess).
The sudden onset lameness may be the result of the abscess like process but could equally be due to another episode of laminitis but it is hard to say whether there is any new rotation of the pedal bone so I cannot say for certain which is responsible. The treatment however is the same. He needs to have the toe taken back (which will remove the abscess) in order to relieve the pressure on the foot/leg at breakover when walking. He also needs heel support – the xray shows that the lowest point of the foot is at the toe and he will be more comfortable with the foot better supported. Unfortunately I don’t think that trimming alone will be able to achieve this and the only real way to stabilise the foot is by placing a shoe, if he doesn’t tolerate nailed shoes then glue on shoes are an option.
I have recommended Dave Nicols because I have worked with him on numerous occasions and he is one of the best farriers currently working in Britain and probably the world. He is also extremely good at discussing the case with us as vets, other farriers and I am sure would be happy to discuss the case with Trevor and would hand it back to him once he had finished with his opinion (which I value highly) and the option to discuss the case in future if help was required. It is not possible for Trevor to place a shoe and as I discussed I would value the more than 30 years of experience that Dave has to guide us as to how best to proceed with Ziggy in order to get him as comfortable as possible as quickly as possible and to get the best possible long term outcome for him.
If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact me either by phone or email.

X

Attached: Latero-medial radiograph RF foot. NB: The radio-dense (white) area towards Ziggy’s heel under his foot that appears slightly separate from the foot is the hoof impression material."

I'll try to attach the X ray image.

Your reactions are welcome!
 

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  • Ziggy Heritage.jpg
    Ziggy Heritage.jpg
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That is quite a reply and a lot of food for thought, Again I can't comment as I don't know enough and am not either a farrier, vet or trimmer and at best could only give experience so I offer nothing but hugs and good vibes and trust that you know Ziggy best and how to get though this sticky patch.
 
Would love to see photos of ziggys feet (not X-ray) to compare.

Also could vet see image at the time? presumably if this is only identifiable by X-ray, and she saw this at the time, then she xrayed at least the other fore if not all four feet??

I would tread with caution, but equally I would go with what sits right with you.
 
How difficult for you.

Your vet seems quite emphatic that heel support is very necessary, and he has the knowledge and xrays.

You could always go back to barefoot at a later date if you chose to take his advice.

Imprint shoes were what I used on my TB x racer. Very expensive and fiddly, but I know my farrier thought they were the best we could get at the time.
 
Wow that frazzled my mind!! Not sure if its me but i found that really hard to digest or understand...:frown:

I have nothing of any help to add really Jane, im just sorry this has happened to you & Ziggy, you two have been through so much already...just doesnt seem fair?? :(

If it was me, i think it probably go with the vets suggestion of using the farrier to get some supportive shoes on....but saying that i dont know what your trimmer is like or what Ziggys feet are like....its difficult to say....!

Keep us all updated anyway, sending lots of healing vibes to the lovely Ziggy boy xx
 
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