another important jumping question

[Tieros hero]

hi

Right, this is a long one! I posted originally re trouble jumping my pony. He's a confidence issue with jumps as he fell about 5yrs ago and had to have an operation on his leg, and seems now to get what I've termed 'goldfish syndrome' where he starts to sort of calm down afer initially rushing the jump or pole, bu then suddenly forgets everything if you reverse directions. Thanks to all who advised me on that, the advice is brilliant.

However, I've read a few posts on here and been thinking about it and need some further advice I'm afraid.

When I saw Tieros previous owner (a friend of mine) jumping him for the first time a few weeks ago (prior to me taking him over), she got really harsh with him, not working him too well before a jump so he rushes them, then sitting and whacking and whacking at him with the crop if he stopped before a jump until he's forced to go over it, which i think might be anther reason why he rushes them. It made me wonder, would I be best off trying him over some poles and low jumps using a long leid rein or lunge line first before attempting to ride him over them? as in me running along side him as he does it, or would I be putting myself in harms way? (he rushes before and after the jump or pole, and can be a little bargey when led. My friend's never lunged Tiero properly and I'm not 100% with lunging so worried I'd do more harm than good if I attempted it). She's got him in a pelham bit with curb chain as she wanted to 'control' him more in jumping, but only has very very light contact, if I take up the reins any more than I have in my profile picture he throws his head around too. I want to put him in a snaffle but not sure if this will make him worse.

He also doesn't know how to carry himself over trotting poles, is this an issue I can resolve as all my others have gone over them fine...well when they weren't being lazy!! He just sort of throws himself at them or cat leaps over them or sometimes even stands on them!

I obviously want to try and resolve the issue myself as I think it'd help him to trust me more if he sees I'm not going to hurt him or force him into something he really hates, I just want to build up his confidence as the person who had him before my friend used to compete on him and said he was fantastic. I also want to see if I can resolve them myself before calling in extra help as I have been thinking he might have to be re-schooled? He's lovely in every other way and I really want to do right by him.

any advice would be appreciated as always

 

[Tink]

Going to start with the obvious question here, sorry!

Have you had all the usual checks done? I'd also be inclined to have a chat with the vet re his op and get his opinion on jumping him again.

What sort of condition is your horse in? And what operation did your beast have? Whats his flatwork like? What's his work regime?

 

[wundahoss]

Assuming answers to Tink's questions are OK, I would go back to the basics. Your ideas of groundwork(not just lunging) & poles is good. I also think you're spot on that your friend's behaviour has at least contributed, if not caused his fear. I personally wouldn't be allowing her to ride him again either.

For more, see my answer to the thread 'scary canter'. This is what I'd advise for you too.

 

[Tieros hero]

Assuming answers to Tink's questions are OK, I would go back to the basics. Your ideas of groundwork(not just lunging) & poles is good. I also think you're spot on that your friend's behaviour has at least contributed, if not caused his fear. I personally wouldn't be allowing her to ride him again either.

For more, see my answer to the thread 'scary canter'. This is what I'd advise for you too.

I'm reading the Mark Rashid book and hoping to use a bit of passive leadership on him as I think he'll benefit from it. at the end of the day he's such a nice boy I want to give him as much time and patience as he needs! so do you think leading him over the jumps is a good idea? re your 'scary canter' post, should I work him until he's relaxed over the poles then call it a day?

He is very 'look and see' with his riding, if he gets spooked (usually by jumps as he's relatively bomb proof!) as long as he can have a sniff and usually a little kick with one of his front feet he's ok with it. I've ridden him in a school where jumps were set up but I didn't jump him as I didn't feel I knew him well enough (rightly or wrongly I don't know, but I wanted to make sure I was confident on him first before asking him to put his trust in me over something he's obviously scared of), and he was intially very tense going past the jumps but as soon as he realised I wan't going to force him over them he calmed down.

My friend was advised that he is sound to jump by his owners before her, although I am tempted to ask one of the vets at the new yard to come out and look at him. Not sure what the op was, think he damaged a ligament but it was all sorted according to his paper work (so I've been told). I spoke to my friend last night and she told me that his saddle is actually one from her old horse (!!), so I'm going to ask a saddle fitter to come out and check it for me. Saying that though he runs fine in the paddock, works beautifully on the flat, very responsive to leg, hand, seat and voice commands -walks and trots fine in hand too. will circle easily, serpentine, leg yield (having to re-teach him that though!) etc so nicely, so wondering if saddle is actually an issue.

no issues with any noises etc, he's had tractors reversing behind him and he's not phased. he does have a tendancy to throw his head if you take up a stronger (not forceful) contact- i ride pretty light anyway but it seems like he struggles if you apply the slightest bit of tension other then a very very light rein.... reading your advice to 'scary canter' I'm thinking of trying him without a bit or using a softer bit to see if that helps him. My friend does actually use every light contact with him with the reins (surprising given her behaviour jumping him!) so not sure if the head toss is just him being bolshy or not, again will ask vet to look at his teeth too.

thinking time is the key with him!!

 

[Tieros hero]

...and in aswer to tink, I've been told he's been checked over by the vet - had a booster injection two weeks ago so got checked then, though I plan on getting the vet at the new yard to check him over too. His work regime is very lax at his current yard as my friend doesn't have any time for him so he can get left for 2 weeks at a time without being ridden, but he's still easy to handle when he's been left for that long. he's in ok shape though he needs muscling up, and his flat work is excellent.

He needs consistent regular riding to bring him on, which is what I plan to give him. I'm hoping to ride him at least twice monday-friday if not more and then every day at the weekend - lots of schooling interspersed with hacks for variety- so he gets lots of exercise and time to develop. He's not on a high protein feed either - pony mix and mollychop once a day then lots of hay and grass.

if it's any additonal help he's a connie X (not sure what crossed with!!)

 

[carrimclaren]

I'm not experienced enough to give you loads of advice about what to do with him but just thought i'd say it's lovely that you're willing to put so much time and heart into helping him and getting him right
If you're worried about his bit why not just try him in a snaffle of some kind and see how he goes on the flat? I think you're going about this right way with plenty of groundwork, getting him to trust you and basic polework. I'd be tempted to chuck the odd pole around the school, school round them to begin with, then let him walk or trot over them and get him used to it not being a bit deal. Then try and increase the poles from 1 to a couple and see how he copes with those. Slowly but surely usually works in my book. Why not see if there's someone about your new yard who can give you a couple of lessons on how to lunge and help you build up to jumping him over small poles etc? Then at least you'd have your confidence in the future when you lunge him. He just sounds like he's scared and confused about what's expect when he's jumping. I'd guess the key is to help him relax and get him to enjoy what he's doing again.
And agree with having all the usual checks done with regards to pain and also getting the all clear from the vets. Not being rude but you can't always trust other people's word with regards to what has been said by vets/saddlers etc.

 

[Julz]

Basically IMHO is that you need to go back to the beginning with him, to build up his confidence with poles and jumps.

Do lots of inhand ground work, and slowly reintroduce poles, one at a time, building up to two or three poles in the arena, but randomly spaced. then you can introduce poles next to each other in trotting pole fashion, but have them spaced so he can walk over them easily. do this after lots of warming up, and always praise when it's gone well... even a little applause.. horses like to please, and like a feel-good atmostphere.. when he's a bit more confident, you can try loose schooling him over poles and slightly raised poles, that way if he does rush, you're not going to get caught up in a long line. Do all on a long line, rather than a lead rope, as most lead ropes for this are too short.

You could also have a "play" session in the school after you have ridden, either schooled or hacked.. I used to do this with my oldie, let him have a roll and whatever, and build a jump for him, he loved it... loose schooling him will also allow him to work out his striding himself.

I agree that your friend, his ex-owner has contributed to this behaviour.. jumping can be fun, and the horse shoudl know this, not be afraid he will be punished (smacked) when he doesnt do it... most horses refuse because the striding is out, not because they dont want to, as many people think.

 

[Tieros hero]

Basically IMHO is that you need to go back to the beginning with him, to build up his confidence with poles and jumps.

Do lots of inhand ground work, and slowly reintroduce poles, one at a time, building up to two or three poles in the arena, but randomly spaced. then you can introduce poles next to each other in trotting pole fashion, but have them spaced so he can walk over them easily. do this after lots of warming up, and always praise when it's gone well... even a little applause.. horses like to please, and like a feel-good atmostphere.. when he's a bit more confident, you can try loose schooling him over poles and slightly raised poles, that way if he does rush, you're not going to get caught up in a long line. Do all on a long line, rather than a lead rope, as most lead ropes for this are too short.

You could also have a "play" session in the school after you have ridden, either schooled or hacked.. I used to do this with my oldie, let him have a roll and whatever, and build a jump for him, he loved it... loose schooling him will also allow him to work out his striding himself.

I agree that your friend, his ex-owner has contributed to this behaviour.. jumping can be fun, and the horse shoudl know this, not be afraid he will be punished (smacked) when he doesnt do it... most horses refuse because the striding is out, not because they dont want to, as many people think.

Thnaks for the advice, how do you free school successfully though? I get the basic principle of using voice aids and letting the horse take him/herself round the school but I'm worried he might get really scared and run around like an idiot and either injure me or himself!! I don't think it's likely as he's pretty docile even in the paddock, just want to make sure everything's ok!

thanks to Carrimclaren for your nice post, like my instructor says you get out of a horse what you put into him xx

 

[Julz]

I dont really know TBH... Oldie loved being free in the school, and just ran, sometimes he listened to me and most times he didnt.. one time I had a jump up, and he went round and round and round over this jump.. i had to demolish it in the end to get him to stop, lol!! i wasnt chasing him or anything, simply stood in the middle of the school watching him enjoying himself!

Seamus on the other hand wont leave my side, he wont lunge, and certainly wont loose school!!

it's kinda like lunging without the rope.. you can use a lunge whip to encourage them, but only if they arent out for revenge on your use of it, try things like waving your arms, voice, even a lead rope, if a lunge whip is out of the question..

 

[wundahoss]

I'm reading the Mark Rashid book ...so do you think leading him over the jumps is a good idea? re your 'scary canter' post, should I work him until he's relaxed over the poles then call it a day?

Mark Rashid's great, isn't he? Sounds to me you likely have the right ideas & enough respect & patience for the horse to get you through this. Yes, I'd start with something like leading over poles *if he's up to even that*. If he's very 'not relaxed' about poles, then I'd maybe just lead him up to them or over one or 2 only. Don't force him to do it if it makes him too nervous, don't force him to do something he's not confident with for very long - otherwise the longer you do it the more he's likely to get unrelaxed! Whatever point he's up to, the aim is to work him *just a little* past his comfort zone, but not enough that he's too worried or finds it hard to do - you want him to practice the right behaviour & attitude & try to avoid or minimise him practicing the 'wrong' ones. If you do go too far for him or he gets reactive, there's no need to keep going in the hope of working through it & ending on a good note - just end the bad session as quickly & well as possible with something easy & aim to start & stay on a good note next time!

and he was intially very tense going past the jumps but as soon as he realised I wan't going to force him over them he calmed down.

Not surprising given his experiences! Great that he's learned to start to trust you.

will circle easily, serpentine, leg yield (having to re-teach him that though!) etc so nicely, so wondering if saddle is actually an issue.

It is possible the saddle is comfortable or bearable to him in most situations but not when jumping.

so not sure if the head toss is just him being bolshy or not, again will ask vet to look at his teeth too.

Possible but I think doubtful there is(or was) not a physical issue or fear of pain causing this. As explained in the other thread, his teeth, etc could be fine now, but he's associated rein pressure with pain in the past, so it's kind of programmed in there now.

I think it sounds like you pretty much know what you're doing actually, just wanted confirmation!

 

[Tieros hero]

Mark Rashid's great, isn't he? Sounds to me you likely have the right ideas & enough respect & patience for the horse to get you through this. Yes, I'd start with something like leading over poles *if he's up to even that*. If he's very 'not relaxed' about poles, then I'd maybe just lead him up to them or over one or 2 only. Don't force him to do it if it makes him too nervous, don't force him to do something he's not confident with for very long - otherwise the longer you do it the more he's likely to get unrelaxed! Whatever point he's up to, the aim is to work him *just a little* past his comfort zone, but not enough that he's too worried or finds it hard to do - you want him to practice the right behaviour & attitude & try to avoid or minimise him practicing the 'wrong' ones. If you do go too far for him or he gets reactive, there's no need to keep going in the hope of working through it & ending on a good note - just end the bad session as quickly & well as possible with something easy & aim to start & stay on a good note next time!



Not surprising given his experiences! Great that he's learned to start to trust you.



It is possible the saddle is comfortable or bearable to him in most situations but not when jumping.



Possible but I think doubtful there is(or was) not a physical issue or fear of pain causing this. As explained in the other thread, his teeth, etc could be fine now, but he's associated rein pressure with pain in the past, so it's kind of programmed in there now.

I think it sounds like you pretty much know what you're doing actually, just wanted confirmation!

lol! that's pretty much it to be fair!! just wanted to make sure I was actually undoing all the bad work and not creating new problems!!

thanks again for all your advice, and yes Mark Rashid is an absolute legend!