Whips as both encouragement and punishment

[An_Riz]

Your horse had refused twice. You admit you weren't focused and your attitude was still 'no big deal I'll just circle again'. Your RI's comments just sound like she was trying to get you bit more positive and determined to me.

By that I just meant that a refusal was no reason to smack the horse over, not that it was grand that the horse wasn't jumping the fence. I probably could have phrased that better. I just knew it was something I could fix next time round by using more leg as I tend to let the horse alone towards the fence and some horses need a leg on the entire way through.

 

[Jessey]

I think you and KP nut are saying the same thing there ^^^ you knew you needed to ride it with more gumption and your RI was trying to raz you up for more gumption

 

[KP nut]

Slightly off topic but this thread has got me thinking.... When I was at HOYS watching a showjumping class a rider on a youngish mare was jumping beautifully until fence 7or 8 then refused. The rider circled the horse away and gave her 4 or 5 smacks on the quarters with a jumping bat before re-presenting the horse to the fence. Commentator said ''well she (the mare) won't do that again" and the crowd chuckled and the horse jumped the rest of the course without incident. My initial reaction was to find watching that pretty unpleasant but it occurs to me that people (including me) often say punishment has to be immediate or the horse will have no idea why it is being punished. But it also seems likely to me that the horse knew exactly why it was being hit: horses are not stupid. She knew her job is to jump all the funny coloured obstacles, she did not jump one of the funny coloured obstacles and her rider was unimpressed and letting her know she better not refuse any more of them OR ELSE! I don't for a second think the horse was left thinking 'I am being hit for circling' or 'I am being hit for no reason' even though the moment of hitting was not directly connected to the refusal but was while circling away. Thoughts?

 

[Jessey]

Slightly off topic but this thread has got me thinking.... When I was at HOYS watching a showjumping class a rider on a youngish mare was jumping beautifully until fence 7or 8 then refused. The rider circled the horse away and gave her 4 or 5 smacks on the quarters with a jumping bat before re-presenting the horse to the fence. Commentator said ''well she (the mare) won't do that again" and the crowd chuckled and the horse jumped the rest of the course without incident. My initial reaction was to find watching that pretty unpleasant but it occurs to me that people (including me) often say punishment has to be immediate or the horse will have no idea why it is being punished. But it also seems likely to me that the horse knew exactly why it was being hit: horses are not stupid. She knew her job is to jump all the funny coloured obstacles, she did not jump one of the funny coloured obstacles and her rider was unimpressed and letting her know she better not refuse any more of them OR ELSE! I don't for a second think the horse was left thinking 'I am being hit for circling' or 'I am being hit for no reason' even though the moment of hitting was not directly connected to the refusal but was while circling away. Thoughts?

See my take on that is that the horse would have not associated the whacks with needing to jump better, simply that whacks on the bum probably got her all het up and her bum tucked under her and the subsequent release (towards a jump) had her take off like she just had her butt spanked

 

[KP nut]

Yes that's a really good point @Jessey

I wonder how many other times we see an effect (horse jumped clean after being hit) and wrongly assume the reason for that effect (she knew she'd get punished again if she refused).

 

[KP nut]

ETA although for all I know the rider knew exactly what effect she was going for - ie get the adrenaline up and then release to the fence.... but you do hear 'he musn't learn he can get away with that' as a reason to hit after the event.

 

[Jessey]

Yes that's a really good point @Jessey

I wonder how many other times we see an effect (horse jumped clean after being hit) and wrongly assume the reason for that effect (she knew she'd get punished again if she refused).

If you get a stop, whack and jump from right there it would be more likely for the horse to associate it with the stop being wrong.

 

[Jessey]

ETA although for all I know the rider knew exactly what effect she was going for - ie get the adrenaline up and then release to the fence.... but you do hear 'he musn't learn he can get away with that' as a reason to hit after the event.

The learning bit is more likely still having to do the jump IMO, its not about the punishment recieved

 

[KP nut]

Yes I agree - I think people say that because they make the wrong assumption about the reason for the effects they see. But then again I think horses are actually pretty intelligent and able to plan ahead and reason to a degree so I am not certain either way tbh. But in practice I won't hit afterwards anyway so I guess it doesn't really matter!

Buck Brannaman got pretty tough with some horses at the event I was at - to the extent people were walking out. But it was ALL done at the moment of the 'transgression' or 'wrong choice'. Never even a second or 2 later. From what I understood, his view was that most punishments make no sense to the horse whatsoever.

 

[orbvalley]

Personally I don't punish my horse, I describe it as we come to an agreement However, I also think that if one wanted to truly "not punish" a horse then one would have to leave it to its own devices as nature intended. Jumping show jumps, cross country, dressage, hacking past wheelie bins or other is clearly not what the truly natural horse is about.

 

[Taffie]

I’m with @Calder; we use the whip in small taps on the haunch to back up the leg pressure, or on the shoulder to keep momentum in canter or trot. And I mean taps, not whacks. I’m currently schoolinh our new mare and she has learnt leg yield very quickly, by reinforcing the leg pressure with small, gentle taps.
Taps just reinforce the pressure, but are certainly not meant to be delivered in anger. The reward to the horse from reacting to the tap is that it ceases, ie the pressure stops, exactly the same principle as with the bit really, if the horse softens then so do your hands as a reward.