The Mare Who No-One Wanted.......
- Thread starter KP nut
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The other complication on this subject is of course dependant on the horse your referring to. For example at the moment I have a 5 year old that I'm teaching to ride in an outline, and yes as @Skib says I regularly release the reins so that she can hang her head low and stretch out her spine. I have 2 other horses who when in work worked like this : 1 was a highly pre-trained dressage horse who would put himself in an outline, even if the rider didn't know what this was all about he could work correctly on his own & basically "carry the rider along with him". The other couldn't work in an outline at all, he's had a very different & difficult riding life which has affected his way of going so much that he just can't put himself in an outline, he just doesn't have the ability and was too old to try to change his body.
Only just watched this. WOW! I love it. Brilliant when the riders swapped. So funny. Both horses are wonderfully responsive, balanced, athletic and relaxed. But I agree, I like the way the little western pony moves better. Piaffe is very impressive but rather artificial! Then again so is spinning.
In terms of translating the purity of dressage or cowboy dressage to real-world riding, I do like the way in which Western horses stop dead from a gallop on a loose rein. When so often people struggle with horses getting strong in canter/gallop. Including me with ALL of my horses. Buck was very clear that horses should be able to 'dial up' to full effort (eg galloping flat out) and 'dial back down' instantly and with ease. Dial up, dial down. Over and over. He says people do not let their horses really get moving because they can't trust them to stop and that is just poor horsemanship. The GP RI I mentioned above has solved the getting strong in canter issue by never, ever allowing her horses to canter or gallop on grass. Grass is only ever for walking on, or for dressage tests. They basically never hack out of walk so it never occurs to them to get excited when their feet hit grass. But I think that's rather sad.
@KP nut When I get a new horse or move to a new area I never gallop or canter on grass. We will walk that stretch for months and when I finally allow them we never do the same thing two hacks in a row. Therefore Ginger pony and Chanter when ridden has never tanked off with me.
As for outline if you read Carl Hesters articles he states that you need to feel the weight of a horse in your hand it should not be light as feather how can you contain a movement or control a pace of there is nothing in your hands? If you are working your horse from behind in to your hand you should 'feel them' in it. Ginger and again Chanter when ridden when asked for a 'give and take' in a test hardly showed any change in pace or head carriage and when the reins are taken back they 'sit' back in to your hands waiting for the next movement. A horse should be light and working from behind but when a horse falls past the point of poll the are then over bent and not working in to your hand.
If you have ever been unlucky enough to have ridden a horse that had been taught to bend via side reins you will know when ridden you feel that your have nothing in your hands therefore no control over the movements its feels unnatural and looks pretty ghastly as the head just disappears. That is just my opinion
As for outline if you read Carl Hesters articles he states that you need to feel the weight of a horse in your hand it should not be light as feather how can you contain a movement or control a pace of there is nothing in your hands? If you are working your horse from behind in to your hand you should 'feel them' in it. Ginger and again Chanter when ridden when asked for a 'give and take' in a test hardly showed any change in pace or head carriage and when the reins are taken back they 'sit' back in to your hands waiting for the next movement. A horse should be light and working from behind but when a horse falls past the point of poll the are then over bent and not working in to your hand.
If you have ever been unlucky enough to have ridden a horse that had been taught to bend via side reins you will know when ridden you feel that your have nothing in your hands therefore no control over the movements its feels unnatural and looks pretty ghastly as the head just disappears. That is just my opinion
Thank you @Skib.
My old RI, who had worked with Mark Rashid, taught me outline the same way - a few steps at a time and gradually building up, although I never seemed to get very far with it. It's one thing making Raf look pretty by dropping his head and pointing his toes, it's quite another to get him actually moving forward from behind. His default setting is to raise his head, lower his back and flick out his toes in a floaty trot, but apparently this is an evasion and I have to make him work properly in my lessons. I am also riding all wrong, and need to change my position, but that's another story.
Now I think this is the issue - my RI teaches this and at a dressage clinic I went to a few years ago I was surprised how much contact I was required to have - to be it feels counter intuitive to be pushing the horse forward with your legs and 'pulling' with the reins, although I have to admit Raf does go better with a firmer contact.
However, if you watch that video of the dressage v western horse you will see that the rider has very little contact on the western horse's mouth, and yet the horse has good carriage and is light, balanced and very responsive.
I guess it comes down to personal preference. I love the feeling of nothing in my hand. Not because the horse has gone behind the bit but because he is holding the bit gently in his/her mouth and giving fully. And I feel in complete control when that happens. But it is definitely a different sensation to the light but clear contact my RI teaches.
I do exactly the same. I try not to canter in the same places. At my last yard the 'gallopy field' was where most accidents happened, including Izzy breaking her arm. But the reason I do that is because I don't trust my ability to stop them tanking off if they start anticipating. Whereas, I guess Buck would say that you should be able to gallop a horse whenever and wherever you like and as many times as you like, and he should still walk politely if you want him to.....
I found this in what appears to be an extract from an old book, published into an on line article, which I am going to investigate further when I get time. (http://stablemade.com/horsecare/horsebreeds/arabian.htm)
"The neck of an Arabian is high set and only by over-refined horses will get the “swan” look. Often in these horses is found so-called “elk neck” (U-neck) and these horses tend to carry their heads high (stargazers), mainly when galloping. The Bedouins see nothing wrong with it and insist that horse going in such way is more enduring."
Different times, different opinions. How much is to do with the fashion of the time I wonder?
Sorry, I will stop hijacking this thread and say no more on the subject!
"The neck of an Arabian is high set and only by over-refined horses will get the “swan” look. Often in these horses is found so-called “elk neck” (U-neck) and these horses tend to carry their heads high (stargazers), mainly when galloping. The Bedouins see nothing wrong with it and insist that horse going in such way is more enduring."
Different times, different opinions. How much is to do with the fashion of the time I wonder?
Sorry, I will stop hijacking this thread and say no more on the subject!
Feel free to hijack! That's very interesting!
I am always anxious in these conversations that people might think I am saying they/their horses should/should not do x,y,z... I am not! I am just exploring ideas because I find it interesting.
It occurred to me that Lisa was the pony who you could gallop anywhere, anytime and know she would never get strong. She was forward and keen, but totally obedient at all times. You could canter her on the gallopy field towards home in complete confidence. That was nothing to do with training but was just the way she was. But Buck made a point of saying that any horse - however 'hot' could be like that. It's an appealing idea, if it's really true. If I could have the rideability of Lisa with the physical ability of Amber, well that would be some horse!!
I am always anxious in these conversations that people might think I am saying they/their horses should/should not do x,y,z... I am not! I am just exploring ideas because I find it interesting.
It occurred to me that Lisa was the pony who you could gallop anywhere, anytime and know she would never get strong. She was forward and keen, but totally obedient at all times. You could canter her on the gallopy field towards home in complete confidence. That was nothing to do with training but was just the way she was. But Buck made a point of saying that any horse - however 'hot' could be like that. It's an appealing idea, if it's really true. If I could have the rideability of Lisa with the physical ability of Amber, well that would be some horse!!
Which is amazing if a horse is working correctly over their back and from behind. I was at comp the other day and I saw a fair few riders and horses that when the reins where picked up the horse dropped its head to what looked like a nice soft contact which it was but if you watched the horse move it was not round over the back or working through.
Well life with Amber is moving at pace!! I have been working on lightness and timing the cue this week which has been really interesting so I want to write about that. But then today I skived off work to play ponies in the sun on a farm ride with XC fences. Amber was wonderful. Just so bold. Jumped everything I put her at, with no hesitation. And mostly calm too. Plenty of canters without getting strong.
There was a group of 8 of us. Some less experienced on older horses, some more experienced on young or green horses and some experienced on experienced horses! So it all got a ,little chaotic at first. It occurred to me that this is the sort of thing Buck was talking about. People were struggling to get their horses to stand still and wait for less experienced riders trying to jump a small log. People were struggling to slow the pace of their horses or stop them following when faster riders went on ahead. Including me. We all split up and in one group a horse took off and all the others in that group also took off and one rider fell.
I ended up in a pair with a lovely young horse who was fine as long as we were moving but could not stand still! And Amber wanted to stride out all the way round rather than listen to my aids and go at a pace set by me. It has never before struck me that this is not just an inevitable way for horses to be.
Anyway, my new goal is to have complete control without strong bits or lots of pressure - even in a group, even at speed, no matter what other horses are doing. I think it will take a while but that;s what I want to get to eventually.
Here are some pics of my lovely, shiny, brave, willing girl.
There was a group of 8 of us. Some less experienced on older horses, some more experienced on young or green horses and some experienced on experienced horses! So it all got a ,little chaotic at first. It occurred to me that this is the sort of thing Buck was talking about. People were struggling to get their horses to stand still and wait for less experienced riders trying to jump a small log. People were struggling to slow the pace of their horses or stop them following when faster riders went on ahead. Including me. We all split up and in one group a horse took off and all the others in that group also took off and one rider fell.
I ended up in a pair with a lovely young horse who was fine as long as we were moving but could not stand still! And Amber wanted to stride out all the way round rather than listen to my aids and go at a pace set by me. It has never before struck me that this is not just an inevitable way for horses to be.
Anyway, my new goal is to have complete control without strong bits or lots of pressure - even in a group, even at speed, no matter what other horses are doing. I think it will take a while but that;s what I want to get to eventually.
Here are some pics of my lovely, shiny, brave, willing girl.
So.... lightness and timing.
In my most recent lesson we were leg yielding. But - as is usual in lessons - I was also expected to think about rhythm, hock engagement, position, using the school, contact, outline etc. So in trotting round it was like "count the rhythm, sit up, heels down, hands up, RHYTHM, bit more active, CORNERS, half halt, now come down 3/4 line and leg yield to track, IMPULSION' etc etc etc.
That's fine. I love my lessons and we learn loads and Amber is going really well. BUT I think each one of those things can be broken down and worked on separately which is what I have been doing when schooling. Focusing on just one thing at a time eg just rhythm or just my position or just contact. And in yesterday;s session on leg yielding as this felt very scrappy and inconsistent in the lesson. I knew I was not tuned into the legs as I had too many other things to think about, so I was guessing the timing of the cue from when the inside shoulder was coming back as I could see that. It was not very effective!
I decided the most important aid was the inside leg on in time with the inside hind leaving the ground. And so that was ALL I focused on. I tuned in to the legs, ignored everything else. I soon realised that to stop using my hands I actually had to 'fix' them in place as otherwise my temptation to fiddle was overwhelming. I also quickly noticed that when a cue did not get the result I was after my instinctive reaction was to cue harder. Even though I was telling myself not to! But once I had shut the rest of my body up and just focused on the leg cue I tried to tune in and feel the legs. Then when I 'got them' I applied the cue in time. Or tried to! Well the difference timing made was astonishing. I had 3 leg yield experiences:
1) I mistimed completely and Amber would not move across at all despite my cues became pretty strong as I could just not rein in the impulse to force her over if she wasn't going.
2) Timing was thereabouts and Amber moved across fairly scrappily and the cue felt quite hard.
3) Timing was spot on. As in I could feel her leg clearly and my leg was just kind of dancing with it. We were moving together. It felt like my leg was connected to hers so my aid moved her. She floated effortlessly across and my cues were feather-light. This was exasperatingly fleeting but I FELT IT. And it is clear that when I get my timing right, it all comes together so easily.
It occurred to me that when you are dancing with another person, the slightest error of timing ruins the whole dance. Nearly timing it right does not feel much better than totally mistiming! Maybe it is the same with horses. So my 'counting' and guessing the time to cue is just going to feel awkward. But getting it right just transforms the experience completely.
I also wondered why - when good timing is clearly so crucial - no one has ever taught it to me! I wonder if this is an example of what Mary Wanless calls professionals teaching the X,Y, Z of riding to people who don't know A,B,C yet. As in, coaches have timing (the A, B, C) so ingrained and instinctive that they don't even know they are doing it. So they teach leg on, mixed in with other aids such as hand, weight etc - (the X,Y,Z) not realising that the timing matters so much because they ALWAYS feel their horses and ALWAYS time cues perfectly. Even if they think they have a constant cue on the side when leg yielding I bet the leg cue has a fraction more life in it when the horse should be stepping across. I bet pro riders couldn't mistime the cue if they tried!
I like that idea because part of me worries that I am a distinctly average rider trying to ride in a way that is just way beyond my skill level. And I should be focusing on just riding a bit better not on 'dancing' with my horse. But Mary Wanless and Buck would say that the stuff I am doing is not advanced, it is foundational. It's just so many people don't have those foundations.
So this is an experiment in aspirations! Can a distinctively average rider learn to dance? We will see......
In my most recent lesson we were leg yielding. But - as is usual in lessons - I was also expected to think about rhythm, hock engagement, position, using the school, contact, outline etc. So in trotting round it was like "count the rhythm, sit up, heels down, hands up, RHYTHM, bit more active, CORNERS, half halt, now come down 3/4 line and leg yield to track, IMPULSION' etc etc etc.
That's fine. I love my lessons and we learn loads and Amber is going really well. BUT I think each one of those things can be broken down and worked on separately which is what I have been doing when schooling. Focusing on just one thing at a time eg just rhythm or just my position or just contact. And in yesterday;s session on leg yielding as this felt very scrappy and inconsistent in the lesson. I knew I was not tuned into the legs as I had too many other things to think about, so I was guessing the timing of the cue from when the inside shoulder was coming back as I could see that. It was not very effective!
I decided the most important aid was the inside leg on in time with the inside hind leaving the ground. And so that was ALL I focused on. I tuned in to the legs, ignored everything else. I soon realised that to stop using my hands I actually had to 'fix' them in place as otherwise my temptation to fiddle was overwhelming. I also quickly noticed that when a cue did not get the result I was after my instinctive reaction was to cue harder. Even though I was telling myself not to! But once I had shut the rest of my body up and just focused on the leg cue I tried to tune in and feel the legs. Then when I 'got them' I applied the cue in time. Or tried to! Well the difference timing made was astonishing. I had 3 leg yield experiences:
1) I mistimed completely and Amber would not move across at all despite my cues became pretty strong as I could just not rein in the impulse to force her over if she wasn't going.
2) Timing was thereabouts and Amber moved across fairly scrappily and the cue felt quite hard.
3) Timing was spot on. As in I could feel her leg clearly and my leg was just kind of dancing with it. We were moving together. It felt like my leg was connected to hers so my aid moved her. She floated effortlessly across and my cues were feather-light. This was exasperatingly fleeting but I FELT IT. And it is clear that when I get my timing right, it all comes together so easily.
It occurred to me that when you are dancing with another person, the slightest error of timing ruins the whole dance. Nearly timing it right does not feel much better than totally mistiming! Maybe it is the same with horses. So my 'counting' and guessing the time to cue is just going to feel awkward. But getting it right just transforms the experience completely.
I also wondered why - when good timing is clearly so crucial - no one has ever taught it to me! I wonder if this is an example of what Mary Wanless calls professionals teaching the X,Y, Z of riding to people who don't know A,B,C yet. As in, coaches have timing (the A, B, C) so ingrained and instinctive that they don't even know they are doing it. So they teach leg on, mixed in with other aids such as hand, weight etc - (the X,Y,Z) not realising that the timing matters so much because they ALWAYS feel their horses and ALWAYS time cues perfectly. Even if they think they have a constant cue on the side when leg yielding I bet the leg cue has a fraction more life in it when the horse should be stepping across. I bet pro riders couldn't mistime the cue if they tried!
I like that idea because part of me worries that I am a distinctly average rider trying to ride in a way that is just way beyond my skill level. And I should be focusing on just riding a bit better not on 'dancing' with my horse. But Mary Wanless and Buck would say that the stuff I am doing is not advanced, it is foundational. It's just so many people don't have those foundations.
So this is an experiment in aspirations! Can a distinctively average rider learn to dance? We will see......
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I believe you! But you are way ahead of me. Honestly, I can't often tell what his legs are doing.
I need to read through all of this but sounds like you guys are having a wonderful time and doing so well together from the few posts I've read 
If you mean can a newish rider give the cue at the correct moment, the answer is yes. I had been riding about 3 years when I first watched Rashid teach a clinic. I made very full notes on all he taught each rider. No one told me which riders were his advanced students so I went home and tried it all on Maisie.
I found it trickier in lessons on the lesson mare as half my mind was on the teacher and it was harder to feel the lesson horse. I sometimes shut my eyes to feel the hind legs better.
I was a beginner rider KPnut and it all worked for me and the horses (Maisie and the lesson horse) both did thought transitions for me. Almost instantly.
My RI told me that getting this feel in one's seat had no correlation to riding level. She said she taught advanced students who simply didnt "get" the idea of doing without conventional cues.
Mark was slightly surprised at his next clinic to discover it all worked for me - and I was equally surprised to learn that these were things were reserved for his most advanced colleague and students!
But over the years he has agreed it is independent of riding level.
Remember, like all communication, it does depend on the horse as well as the rider. Larry is a push button gelding. He will never be at the same level of instant feel as the three mares - but even he is starting to transition to trot just at a thought.
It is a too way thing, also because the horse may give you the feel, it is asking if it should trot or canter and one responds with a no or yes. We rode down a track the other day which was new to me and Larry offered to canter (feel, not any unsolicited canter steps) which I rejected. And about 150 metres further on it was suggested by the RI we should have a canter. And I realised then that Larry associated this track with having a canter, even tho I myself had never been in that place before nor cantered there.
Anyway maybe you are referring to yourself as an average rider because you come at some average position on a results table? First of all you are not average in your approach to horses because like me you think about it all the time. I gather from the yard that I am the only client who spends their time with a horse as I do.
And secondly I did this cuing on the right moment at a time before I could even canter fluently. Mark teaches people to breathe and count and feel in walk first - so I did that - and then transfer it to trot. We always leave the yard in walk. And I do that. Every time.
And the walk is connected to what has preceded it too - What you do when you mount - or if you need to place your horse relative to other horses by circling, turning or backing up. The horse's attention is already on you. even when you have given permission for him to stand and relax and just wait, that permission emanates from you, the rider.
So with Amber too you should regard this as two way. The RIs would say that Maisie would do anything for me. My RI would explain that the horse is in fact responding to miniscule physical changes in ones seat hands and legs. Remember that a horse can respond to a fly on its skin.
We dont consciously supply those signals. But they are there and when Mark tells us to up our energy levels and communicate that to the horse, possibly that is what he means. I think how nice it might be to canter, and a horse who knows me, will probably pick up just on that thought. Because it is accustomed to how it feels to him when rider, Skib, is about to canter. And he has learned that these sensations along his back, sides ,reins etc have a significance.
In my opinion this is very different from Brannaman. Where human limb movements are very important.
You are speaking of leg yield where you combine timing with a visible cue. But as an experiment as well as doing leg yield, try steering the horse just by thought. We steer a lot out hacking to avoid low branches etc or a pot hole in the ground. The horses I hack often are (I think) steered by my seat weight. And body position. So in the school (all in walk) one can walk large and think of bringing the horse in and then out again to the track. Or turn down the three quarter line and think Amber out to the track.
I have a very weak left leg and my guess is that when I leg yield to the right, the leg aid is insignificant compared with what the horse picks up from my seat.
It is quite hard to say how far you might go as you are a fit, athletic competition rider, whereas the way I ride arises from physical limitations or laziness. It isnt a project to prove my skill. I was a beginner who had no existing skills and Mark gave me some.
Thanks @Skib. It is great to have another New Rider who is interested in this subtle way of riding and reassuring to know that this is independent of level. I say 'average' when I suppose what I really mean is that there are lots of things with my riding that I am quite poor at - I bounce too much, my lower leg is unstable and I tend to draw it back and up. I am one sided - very right hand dominant. So I worry that I am simply trying to work on advanced ideas when my basics still require considerable improvement. But Buck - and it seems also MR - do not regard it as 'advanced' but just 'the way to ride' whatever your level.
Re Buck Brannaman - he says he only starts with external cues. The internal energy is paired with it, till you can do away with the cue altogether. Buck talks of 'life' - life in the reins, life in the legs - so you are talking to the horse without using pressure, instead using 'life'. And the horse offers you 'life' too - the request to canter being an example. Buck also uses the phrase 'feel for' your horse instead of 'cue' your horse. It seems to be that thinking of feeling for is better than cueing as a) the focus is on communication not command and b) he says if you 'feel for' your horse, your horse will in turn start trying to 'feel for' you. So yes it is absolutely 2 way. Thyme used to 'ask me questions' as I saw it. Or 'feel for me' as Buck might describe it. Amber not so. Yet!
Re Buck Brannaman - he says he only starts with external cues. The internal energy is paired with it, till you can do away with the cue altogether. Buck talks of 'life' - life in the reins, life in the legs - so you are talking to the horse without using pressure, instead using 'life'. And the horse offers you 'life' too - the request to canter being an example. Buck also uses the phrase 'feel for' your horse instead of 'cue' your horse. It seems to be that thinking of feeling for is better than cueing as a) the focus is on communication not command and b) he says if you 'feel for' your horse, your horse will in turn start trying to 'feel for' you. So yes it is absolutely 2 way. Thyme used to 'ask me questions' as I saw it. Or 'feel for me' as Buck might describe it. Amber not so. Yet!
So I hacked Amber out today. 1 1/4 hours all in walk. I noticed she was 'running' away with me even in walk! ie dictating the pace. I also realised I never would have considered that a problem before but I want control and walk is the first place to try and get it. She planted at a field of cows and I serpentined past them which worked well. She tried to jog and I circled which also worked weĺl. I played around with increasing then lowering the energy: forward march then slow amble then forward march again. With minimal rein or leg. It was fun and she did listen quite a lot of the time. But quite often she also just marched or jogged. Lots of work to do!
Well, I have had Ziggy 7 years and he still tries to dictate the pace in walk. It sounds horrid, but I have to be on his case the whole time or he will be in charge!
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