Really? Thank you very much, I appreciate yo explaining that to me & I will give it a go
Re-teaching our horse to have hooves picked
- Thread starter Celeste
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Really? Thank you very much, I appreciate yo explaining that to me & I will give it a go
Thank you for your response......sorry for being niave, but what is a nail bind? And please may you explain what you mean by a cycle? I would like to learn more
The thing is returning her to her stable isn't likely to be perceived s punishment as it's too far removed from her action, but if she somehow did then you don't want her associating it with punishment. Many years ago, when he was a youngster, I made the mistake of pushing Jim away a few steps as punishment & ended up with a horse that forever viewed being asked to move away as meaning he was wrong - doesn't sound much but think of lunging, or asking to move over in the stable or a hundred other little things. Think very very carefully about how you reprimand, particularly with a clever horse who may take more from it than you think.
I don't think anyone would argue that a disrespectful, out of control or frightened horse is dangerous! Step one for us is putting ourselves in a position to succeed though, so constantly be aware or what your body language is saying & hers too - if she's a pushy horse then make sure your stance always says you mean business & instil behaviour such as taking a step back when you ask on approach so you have a clear doorway. I don't have any problem with treats as rewards, so for example "get back" & if needs be a finger (not the flat of your hand) in her chest to reinforce it with the repeated command & then "good girl" & a treat when she complies. Like us they learn far faster if there's something in it for them! Clicker training is a formalisation & more refined version of this - I find the crude form works for me. Yes horses do use aggression to each other but if you really watch a herd you'll see the real high ranking horses don't need to because body language alone is enough, when aggression kicks in it normally means there isn't enough respect & you really do not want to be in that situation. IF physical correction is needed (& personally I think it means I've failed or the situation has escalated to where my personal safety is at stake) then it should be instant, aimed at the area that has given offence, & big enough that the horse's immediate reaction is "*#@! I'm not doing that again!". What level that is will vary from horse to horse, what would turn my welsh cob into a blithering wreck would have had so little impact on my ID that he'd have come straight back at the human to correct them - what the ID would view as "woops, went to far - sorry" would probably mean I'd never get near the welshie again. The ID was a field god though & probably the most dominating horse I've ever dealt with in over 35 years, the welshie is bossy in the field but doesn't and never will have that level of authority where an almost impercetible change in body language can alter what happens half a field away.
I still think I'd be looking at getting a vet out. The farrier can't see inside the feet, but also a problem shoeing may be due to pain elsewhere & that discomfort or memory of it may be why you're having problems now.
Thank you for your very thoughtful & experienced response......I enjoyed reading it & I appreciate the time you have taken to write it. I think reward is most definately equally as important & this is constructive & helpful advice. Lottie (our horse) allowed our daughter to pick her feet after the farrier, but not me.
Lottie lunges & rides & walks & stands without any evidence of pain. She had a riding lesson with my daughter this evening & had a spring in her step. I am sure she would not do any f this lightly if she was experiencing pain & if we even considered pain, I can assure you that we would ensure she gets the care she deserves. She even cantered up the hill of her field today when I rewarded her for finally letting me check her feet, after 3 long days. Our yard leader & teacher believes that a few days in the stable won't hurt her.
It is not the first time that she been choosy about what she wants to do & thrown her weight around or demonstrated her disapproval.
Please may I reassure you that we have no problem with getting a vet at any time, & may I also say that I am not dismissing pain or the memory of pain, but I do believe that there is no current evidence of pain. This is all very tricky, but we do want the best for her.
You do sound very focused on what your yard leaders and teachers are telling you. Are they instructors of yours?
Is this a natural horsemanship approach they refer to? That's fine if you know what you are doing, not doing and why.
Yes horses do bite, kick and use physical dominance in a group in a field. They also do lots of other things to communicate.
When my horse is with me I hope that they don't treat me as they would another horse. I have been flat on my arse when she galloped over and reared up to play! I believe in a partnership but I am not a horse and they are not a human. Rearing is normal horse herd behaviour but you wouldn't accept that would you? So what horses do in the field with each other doesn't really apply to us in this instance, I am not a horse please don't treat me as one.
Is this a natural horsemanship approach they refer to? That's fine if you know what you are doing, not doing and why.
Yes horses do bite, kick and use physical dominance in a group in a field. They also do lots of other things to communicate.
When my horse is with me I hope that they don't treat me as they would another horse. I have been flat on my arse when she galloped over and reared up to play! I believe in a partnership but I am not a horse and they are not a human. Rearing is normal horse herd behaviour but you wouldn't accept that would you? So what horses do in the field with each other doesn't really apply to us in this instance, I am not a horse please don't treat me as one.
Thank you for your response, yes I am influenced by our yard leaders/teachers because they are qualified & experienced & I am not. This is also why I have joined this forum, I am open to learning & constructive ideas because I want the best for our Lottie & I was hoping people would share their constructive experiences of caring for their horses, so that we can help Lottie to move forwards & allow us to give her the care she deserves, do you have any suggestions?
I'd go further than that, I'd say it's likely to make matters worse. She may get tense & wound up which will make her harder for you to handle & ride, plus if there's stiffness as part of the problem - I know you say she isn't showing physical signs of pain but horses are very good at hiding things & my gut feeling is that her behaviour is a sign - then restricting her movement will make it worse.
Just what training do your yard teachers have? The advice that you say they're giving is extremely strange & more likely to provoke a bad reaction from Lottie than solve the problems you're having.
I would pick the feet out when they need doing. So bring in, tie up and stay on the same side. I have a container and run my hand down she lifts. As I move round she knows what hoof is next. I am consistent is what I mean.
Being a mare mine might do the rowing boat with her back leg. That's not her being naughty when she is in season it causes her to be a little stiff. It's probably too early for you to notice if yours is what they call marish around her seasons. But people have suggested pain to you already so me suggesting discomfort will be dismissed as you say it's not.
Being a mare mine might do the rowing boat with her back leg. That's not her being naughty when she is in season it causes her to be a little stiff. It's probably too early for you to notice if yours is what they call marish around her seasons. But people have suggested pain to you already so me suggesting discomfort will be dismissed as you say it's not.
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Thank you for your view......the good news is that our Lottie is showing signs of improved behaviour. Her lesson last night went well & she cooperated with both myself & my daughter with her feet & standing. She was rewarded with her field yesterday & I will be using instant reward & instant discipline as a way forward. We will also be using lunging as was recomended by another member to encourage respect on the ground.
Nail bind is where the farrier places the nail slightly wrong and catches the sensitive parts inside of the foot which can be extreamly painful for them. Often if caught it can make them less coo pristine afterwards.
When I say it's started a cycle, I am referring to a cycle of behaviour around her feet. Horses learn from experience and if she's learnt she doesn't have to pick up her feet or can snatch them away (the cause of this initial action can be many things) then a cycle can develop whereby she will do this more and more. I'm intrigued that you think it's you being too soft, yet your very experienced farrier also had problems, as a rule farriers aren't soft around horses and their feet. Perhaps spending time really studying what your daughter is doing differently would be of benefit given she doesn't have problems with her, look closely at how she asks, body position, hand position, how high and at what angle she lifts the leg etc to see if there is something that works better.
When I say it's started a cycle, I am referring to a cycle of behaviour around her feet. Horses learn from experience and if she's learnt she doesn't have to pick up her feet or can snatch them away (the cause of this initial action can be many things) then a cycle can develop whereby she will do this more and more. I'm intrigued that you think it's you being too soft, yet your very experienced farrier also had problems, as a rule farriers aren't soft around horses and their feet. Perhaps spending time really studying what your daughter is doing differently would be of benefit given she doesn't have problems with her, look closely at how she asks, body position, hand position, how high and at what angle she lifts the leg etc to see if there is something that works better.
I don't feel the op actually wants to take on board much of the advice given on here. I have to be honest, I feel like it is all a bit pointless because there have been many suggestions but ultimately it sounds like the "yard teachers" and their advice is the one that will most likely be followed. Just feel sorry for the pony if these teachers honestly think shutting it away for a few days long after the event will teach them anything. Very sad to think someone experienced with horses would do this and think of it as a good solution. I don't often stick my nose in on this board but I have to comment on this.
I've not read every response here but I do understand what you are saying with regard being the boss as it were, however, each horse is different and to be honest if you used some of the methods your yard teacher is telling you on my little mare you'd very quickly find yourself in a whole heap of trouble.
What I will say is unless you are certain it’s not pain related you cannot rule it out, I understand your yard staff are not novices but it doesn’t mean that their way is the only way and not every method will work on every horse.
I hope for your horses sake as well as your own that you find a solution and quickly, perhaps follow @Jessey suggestion and watch closely how your daughter does things.
What I will say is unless you are certain it’s not pain related you cannot rule it out, I understand your yard staff are not novices but it doesn’t mean that their way is the only way and not every method will work on every horse.
I hope for your horses sake as well as your own that you find a solution and quickly, perhaps follow @Jessey suggestion and watch closely how your daughter does things.
Have you had ground lessons with Lottie? My very first lesson with my horse was all about respecting my personal space. My new RI noticed straight away that Raf stood very close and was a bit pushy. I though it was cute that he wanted to be near me but RI said it was important that he respected my space and learned that he could stand on his own, without the need to 'lean' on anyone. Like you I am very soft and didn't know how to discipline him without fear but my RI showed me how to do it without anger. It basically involved lots of leading and stopping and putting him back in his own space if he came too close. She showed me where to dig my fingers in his chest to make him move back and how to snake him back round behind me if he went ahead. I had to keep my feet still and make him move his when putting him back in position. It was tricky but we got there.
Sorry you didn't really need to know all that, but my point is that a good and sympathetic RI can teach you from the ground up as it were.
Sorry you didn't really need to know all that, but my point is that a good and sympathetic RI can teach you from the ground up as it were.
How big is this horse, any photos we do love those and welcome to the forum by the way.
Let us know how things progress, we do like to have topics to chat about.
Out of interest what country are you in?
Some one has posted about all horses being different. My concern would be that you are new owner of only three months and this horse has already thrown you off. So it won't hesitate to throw your daughter assuming this is a mother and daughter first horse share?
If your response was to return to the stable as this yard suggests then that's great for the horse, it doesn't have to do any work. That's how mine views immobility, it's her best gait doing nothing. It's a reward of mine actually.
Let us know how things progress, we do like to have topics to chat about.
Out of interest what country are you in?
Some one has posted about all horses being different. My concern would be that you are new owner of only three months and this horse has already thrown you off. So it won't hesitate to throw your daughter assuming this is a mother and daughter first horse share?
If your response was to return to the stable as this yard suggests then that's great for the horse, it doesn't have to do any work. That's how mine views immobility, it's her best gait doing nothing. It's a reward of mine actually.
I have to say I have NO idea what your yard 'instructors' are doing with their advise of 'punish her by putting her in a stable', but putting that aside you need to start looking at things from the horses view point!
I will use the feet as an example, but this applies to anything you are asking them to do.
1, Does the horse understand the question? If not more training is needed.
2, Why is the horse not doing what is asked - is it a reasonable question to be asking?
3, Is there a reason the horse wont do it if 1 and 2 are yes? Pain, fear, confidence etc.
So with the feet.
Do you always ask in the same way
Do you do it in a position where she feels secure.
Do you pick the feet out correctly when you do pick them up, dont hurt her etc.
Then assuming (and this might be a bit of a reach) this is the case then what do you do when you cant pick them up...you leave her alone! So your current training in her view is 'if i dont pick up my feet they give up and leave me alone'. She is likely to get worse not better as you train HER prefered response, which is to ignore you then get left alone!
The key is to not quit, but not to ask too much. If its one foot a night then thats fine to start with. Keep calm, keep patient, keep persisting! Always the same way, never with a fuss or bother, but never quit.
Seriously, I have a horse at mine atm for a friend of a friend having a nasty relationship breakup. The first week this horse would try and kick you if you attempted to go near the back end. I just didnt let go, if I had to I asked again and again. Kept the question small to start with. 'Pick up your foot without trying to kick me', which was rewarded by putting her foot down...leaving her alone! 4 weeks later 95% of the tim she offers her feet in turn with me standing there and bending over. She hasnt tried to kick after the first 8 days.
In you situation i would seriously suggest getting in an external insturctor for perhaps another view point.
I will use the feet as an example, but this applies to anything you are asking them to do.
1, Does the horse understand the question? If not more training is needed.
2, Why is the horse not doing what is asked - is it a reasonable question to be asking?
3, Is there a reason the horse wont do it if 1 and 2 are yes? Pain, fear, confidence etc.
So with the feet.
Do you always ask in the same way
Do you do it in a position where she feels secure.
Do you pick the feet out correctly when you do pick them up, dont hurt her etc.
Then assuming (and this might be a bit of a reach) this is the case then what do you do when you cant pick them up...you leave her alone! So your current training in her view is 'if i dont pick up my feet they give up and leave me alone'. She is likely to get worse not better as you train HER prefered response, which is to ignore you then get left alone!
The key is to not quit, but not to ask too much. If its one foot a night then thats fine to start with. Keep calm, keep patient, keep persisting! Always the same way, never with a fuss or bother, but never quit.
Seriously, I have a horse at mine atm for a friend of a friend having a nasty relationship breakup. The first week this horse would try and kick you if you attempted to go near the back end. I just didnt let go, if I had to I asked again and again. Kept the question small to start with. 'Pick up your foot without trying to kick me', which was rewarded by putting her foot down...leaving her alone! 4 weeks later 95% of the tim she offers her feet in turn with me standing there and bending over. She hasnt tried to kick after the first 8 days.
In you situation i would seriously suggest getting in an external insturctor for perhaps another view point.
Have to say I agree with @Trewsers, you can send a child to its room as a form of punishment and the child is likely to have some understanding of the reason for this. Shutting a horse in its stable as punishment is frankly crazy as it can't possibly understand that concept, and it definitely isn't going to solve anything. If she seems better then perhaps the farrier did accidentally hurt her slightly, but I'd seriously be questioning the advice your yard owners gave you on this one.
oh crikey! Look - using the field as a reward is completely bonkers. Not least because your horse will not associate it as such and it’s not instant, as already explained. Instant means, within a nano-second. Which can be achieved with treats and clicker training. However although you can ‘train’ a horse this way, they are not dogs and generally you have to be the boss and handle them properly. You can’t rely on reward training. It sounds to be like you need to a)get the vet to double check things and then b) get a properly qualified BHS RI out to give you some groundwork lessons. Your yard owner obviously hasn’t a clue.
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