Jumping and changing bits between disciplines?

[wildponies]

On the flat and out hacking Sal has quite a light mouth, i can ride her in the lightest of snaffles and have complete control.. and brakes.

Jumping: the first time i came to jump her at the *new* yard i noticed how excited she became when she saw a jump (even if it was the other side of the arena). To try and overcome this i started doing flat work, not only in a jumpless arena but also in an arena that may have a few randomly placed jumps in it. She has improved considerably and now no longer expects us to be jumping even if there are showjumps in sight. A week or so later i decided to see how she'd react with schooling in the jump-filled arena first and then popping over one of them. It was a very small jump, only about a foot or so off the ground but as soon as i turned her for it she tanked her way up to it at what felt like 100mph in a very messy, flat out way and jumped it. We also had difficulty stopping after the jump and i ended up circling a few times to re establish any kind of brakes i'd had before the jump! I tried again, hoping that she was just excited, but the same thing happened.

I spent a while after that, (whenever i decided to brave a jumping session) insisting that she walked up to the jumps and then nudged her on a few strides out so that she had just enough time to set herself up before the jump and this seemed to work. I eventually had her calm enough to do a few jumps in succession, with brakes!

Time for the jumps to get a little bigger. This is where the vast majority of my problems began. She knew i meant business when the jumps started to increase in height, and she seemed to get even more excited. Desperately trying to turn into the jumps even when we were doing a flat-work session in the jumping area. I have, within the past couple of days, started jumping her over the bigger jumps. She jumps beautifully when she's been collected and the striding is right. Unfortunately the only way to achieve this is to have the tightest contact i've ever had to use on a horse before! I'm holding so tight onto her mouth and she's still pulling forward, cantering sideways sometimes into the jump to try and get the reins off me! I can't let her 'go' until halfway through her last stride before take off, any earlier and the striding goes to pot and she brings the whole thing down. I can't ask her to walk up to these jumps and the nudge her over them because they're too big, even for her legs. As soon as the jumps go small again she's fine, i can use a much softer contact (after the sessions we spent stopping her getting so excited and walking up to the jumps)

Once she's jumped the bigger jumps i can't stop, she lands, puts her head down and shoots towards the next jump (if there is one) or the fence (which worries me slightly ) So, is it worth using a stronger bit on her for jumping? Don't get me wrong, i'm not looking into changing bits as a way of masking a problem i can't be bothered sorting out.. i've run out of ideas! I have also tried lunging her over jumps but she won't go over them most of the time(acting in completey the opposite way to when there's a rider on her back) and if she does go over them it's a very lazy kind of 'stepping-over-the-jump' rather than a clean jump.

I pulled on her mouth so hard in the last jumping session that the corners of her mouth looked VERY sore. She's fine in all flatwork / hacking. She used to pull on the bit even in flatwork but after visit from dentist she has been completely cured from this but the jumping problem still remains.

Thanks for reading this extremely long post and any advice greatly appreciated

 

[Eli_Jay]

I have similar issues with both my horses. My mare and i never did much jumping, but when we did she did similar things to your mare... I don't jump her anymore because I'm too big for her and only now go on the occasional hack.
My gelding is a little like you're mare. he's a showjumping schoolmaster and is completely certain he can get around the entire course without you interfering, so with him its more of a case of keeping control. one quirk he has, which amuses me, is to attempt to line himself up for jumps when you're warming up.
XC however, i have a few problems. when he gets out in the open and jumps he just wants to keep going and sometimes i feel like my arms are going to snap when I'm trying to hold him back, so far we've had no incidents but I wouldn't feel comfortable competing XC on him above gr5 at the moment.


My trainer reccomended a kimblewick/spanish snaffle for jumping. I personally think its a bit harsh (and so does cheque - when i tried to put it on him he reared and through a tantrum) however, I wouldn't advise you buying one of these without consulting a trainer/instructor who is familar with you and you're horse. If used in the wrong hands, the horse can go over backwards and, because theres a curb chain, you can do damage to the jaw.

Also, what sort of bit is you're mare in and what sort of noseband? And is it possible for you to see if others have the same issues when jumping her? You say she's happy to jump without a rider, is it possible that she's picking up on you're nervousness about jumping her? Just a though.
Good luck!!

 

[Perfect Pony]

Well guys i have the oposite problem, Shadow loves jumping and its all hes ever done, he was bred to show jump and has jumped with the best of them and he will only jump well in a snaffle happymouth however in schooling he thinks that he can run round with his head in the air, he doesnt pull he just doesnt listen unless theres a jump involved, iv tried everything and i keep changing his bit around to keep him listening, i hav however found that the myler bits are great but rather expensive also sometimes i use a dutchgag but a happymouth jointed one only on snaffle as hes not strong but it just makes him listen a lil more, i would recommend the mylers tho, theyre great!!!

 

[helenc]

This sounds like a schooling issue to me, rather than a bit problem.

Do you have jumping lessons? Without actually seeing you it is a bit difficult to know what to suggest. An instructor on the ground will be able to get a better idea.

In the mean time, try circling in front of the jump - smallish circles but not too small that she looses her balance. You can aim at the jump & if she tanks put her on a circle, keep doing this until she aims at it calmly & then let her jump.

Why do you have to have really small or really large jumps? Can you not just put them up one hole at a time?

 

[wildponies]

helenc - the circles idea sounds like a plan to me, hadn't thought about that. Just hope i would actually be able to circle her thgouh, as she will really tank into the jump! Sorry i didn't make myself very clear, we did start going up a hole at a time but there came a certain point where i couldn't ask her to step over it any more from a walk as it was just 2 big, this is what i call big jumps

shadow_dancer, someone has reccomended a myler to me before, i'm not worried about cost but i'm still not sure as to what their actions are like. Are there different kinds of mylsers that you can get? My horse has a low pallet so ideally i'd like something that she'd be comfortable in. i have considered a gag too but using 2 reins rather than one, one on the snaffle and one on the pelham or gag perhaps? Again i'm not too sure!

Eli_Jay, thanks for your long reply, much appreciated! I have had jumping lessons with her twice but exactly the same thing has happened. I hadn't thought about changing nosebands, which is less severe, changing bits or changing nosebands? Forgot to mention, she's a different horse XC, easy brakes and if anything stands off the jumps a bit and you really do need to keep your legs on in places to keep the impulsion or she will tentatively take you into the jump and not be as sure footed on landing as she should be. This made me think she's not done half as much XC as showjumping and perhaps doesn't respect the showjumps as much as the scary big jumps out in the fields? She might be picking up on my nervousness during jumping as the fences get bigger, i'm not overly confident in her that she will allow me to pull her up anytime soon after the jump. Thanks every1

 

[Perfect Pony]

the myler i use is not strong at all and is just like a snaffle, its rings ar D's and its jointed but in the middle is a copper roller which really makes them accept the bit and listen!!! Good for turning in ** circles before the jump and for stopping after!!! Good luck, hop u sort it out, il c if i can find a pic and post that to show u!!!

 

[Perfect Pony]

u should find this helpfull, the one with the copper roller i use, D ring!!!

http://www.toklat.com/myler/mbits_cheek_b.html

 

[wildponies]

thanks shadow_dancer, really helpful! think i'll keep an eye on ebay to see if i can pick up a myler

 

[Eli_Jay]

I wouldn't go for a dutch gag straight away, for similar reasons why i wouldn't use a kimblewick straight away, both are quite harsh bits and it's likely she'll fight them and become even more 'exciteable'.

Martigale won't hurt - only I'd definitely go for a running martingale as apposed to a standing one etc, even if she doesn't have a tendancy to put her head up it gives you a bit more control.

It's a tough problem you've got... honestly, if she was my horse, i'd just keep jumping her and doing what you're doing. Except, if you find she's worse the higher she gets, start off low again and work your way up slowly (like, start at a foot at the start of the session and end up at 2 foot, next session begin at 1.5 foot etc).
I think you're doing everything you can, and you're definitely not trying to 'treat the symptom and not the cause'.

lmao! saying that people aren't brave enough to ride you're mare. same thing with my gelding, when the people at my new stable first saw him they all wanted a ride because he was being such an angel - next weekend i took him up to nextdoors indoor (he has no issues with indoors at all, and I've spent the last six months working him in one) and he put on about eight or nine bucking bronco displays because a) someone sneezed b) the instructor asked me if i'd ever done leg yielding c) someone in the stands quietly did their zipper up! lmao - he's such a dag. and we we tried doing the leg yielding (which he's perfectly capable of) he went completely sideways and did a perfect half pass - lol.

 

[Styric]

My horse did the exact same thing, and I'm assuming when she does it she jumps long and flat too?

Guess how we solved it..

Gymnastics with stride poles.

2-4 fences in a row, with different striding between each fence and poles on the ground in between to mark the strides and make sure they thought about after the jump as well as before. Make sure it's varied and changes so she constantly has to think about what she's doing and where she's putting her feet.

For example, a crossrail with a one stride to a vertical or an oxer, two strides to a bounce, a stride to another bounce.

That's probably more complicated than you want to go at first, but you need to get her to wake up and pay attention to what she's doing and listen to you.

It's great for making a horse really think about what they're doing and learn to listen to their rider. They figure out pretty quick that they CANT rush the fences without getting into some serious trouble.

It should also help with the long flat jump usually associated with horses that run the fences by making them shorten and extend their strides, really think about where they're jumping, and if you toss in a few oxers and bounces, it should help her round out some.

Just make sure you use the stride poles *properly* with a coach's instruction, as a horse can trip over them if they're not distanced properly, and they're extremely useful for this problem. Also make sure you stick to lower fences at first, it gets progressively more difficult the higher you go.

It should also lighten her up and give your arms a well needed break.

The whole point of the exercise is to make her flexible, responsive and start thinking about what she's doing.

You wouldn't believe the change in my horse once we started this. The first couple times he barreled through as fast as he could, and promptly ran straight into a fence and scared himself. The next time we went through, I could actually feel him lighten up, say 'Mom, I'm not sure how to do this.. tell me?', and listen.

He still reverts occasionally when he's bored and I haven't varied his exercise enough, but a quick lesson with the gymnastics reminds him really quick.

 

[katefarmer]

Have you had her back and teeth checked? I think I'd make that the first stop, and if that's all OK, go back to poles and very small fences until she can relax, then increase the size VERY slowly.

The suggestions by Styric look good - but keep everything very small and simple. See also the articles on my website on bitting and bridling, and curing rushing. Some of this you have probably already covered - but this will give you some alternative approaches. The curing rushing section is all about keeping the horse's mind with you and not not letting it anticipate.

Something is obviously happening in her head as soon as she thinks about "jump". It could be pain - "lets get this over as quickly as possible". The fact everything is fine until the fences get bigger suggest this could be the problem - particularly the putting her head down after the fence. My gut feeling is that somehting is going on there - but either way, a stronger bit is not the answer. If you think you've made her mouth sore already - that's all you're going to do with another bit. After eliminating pain, work with her mind, and her body will come along automatically!

Cheers

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

 

[Styric]

Exactly.

Eliminate any medical issues, then do the gymnastics. I forgot to mention to start those off low (crossrail to 1'6-2'), thanks for correcting it katefarmer

If she still rushes, going straight back to the basics would be your best shot. A horse can't read if they missed a few letters in their ABCs.

 

[wildponies]

First ride with me as owner she reared and bolted. She has had a saddle pinch her in the past i think, can see white hairs. I fitted her saddle myself but had it checked. Dentist said she had sharp edges down one side which could have caused her headshaking and leaning on the bit (leaning?! No.. pulling my arms out of their sockets more like!) Anyway in conclusion, both back, saddle and teeth are fine. She was a nightmare to tack up when i first bought her, i think she was anticipating pain from badly fitting tack in the past. This could be the reason she reared / bolted when i first got on her in the new place (a combination of anticipating pain and being in new surroundings may have pushed her over the edge!)

Eli_Jay - she does have a high head carriage anyway and i had been considering putting her in a martingale, i don't want to end up with an over gadgeted horse which is why i've put off putting her in one if i could avoid it but i think it might be a sensible option. A running one definately as i doubt she'd need a standing, and i don't think jumping would be too successful in a standing?

I do start off low to begin with, obviously don't go into the menage and ask her to jump a few feet, we start off jumping straights in the first hole and work our way upwards always doing the ''lets walk into the jumps''. Sometimes if she's gone really well and calmly i will put it up to a reasonable height, between 2 and 3ft, a hole or 2 at a time and as soon as she jumps one nicely and calmly i will finish her with a lot of praise. If she hasn't worked so well over the lower heights i stick at the lower heights and work her over those until she does them calmly and hen finish her there (latter happens less frequently now as we've more or less sorted her issues with jumping small fences and she will, 99% of the time, do them sensibly!)

Styric - jumping a combination of jumps in series sounds like a fantastic idea, can't honestly think why i hadn't thought myself. If i put the first 2 a couple of canter strides between and then the third maybe a stride out. She will see the second jump but with 2 canter strides have enough time to slow herself down and then may just about be ready for the 3rd which (hopefully) she would be expecting. This might just work for her! i will start off with some very diddy jumps this afternoon with her, maybe 2 to start off with then add the third. Very excited about this, this might just be the answer! She doesn't jump long and flat though, she's a very ''on her haunches'' ride, difficult to explain but if you've ever ridden a well schooled SJer, she has the 'on the spot' canter with lots of spring in her back legs. I am failing to explain this particularly well. As long as i keep hold of her until a few strides out she will jump beautifully, i can't fault her shape at all but if i let her career into it from 5 or so strides out she will flatten slightly simply because of her speed but more often than not will bring the fence down with her, it's like she has no respect for the fence sometimes!

katefarmer - i agree with what you've said BUT in using a 'soft' bit, just a snaffle at the moment, i am having to exert a lot of pressure on it to get her to take any notice. Using a stronger bit that i would use to merely check her with rather than clinging on to would surely do far less damage than a bit where i was continuously on a very tight and restricting contact? I was thinking also about a bit that exerted poll pressure, not sure how she'd react to that but i'm willing to try anything. I will take a look at your website, sounds like you've got some interesting and helpful stuff on there.

just another point - i more or less restarted this horse when she arrived after the rearing / bolting and napping fiasco we had and spent a lot of time on the ground lunging and long reining to remind Sal of voice aids and to get her to trust me. I did some monty roberts and NH exercises as well and her confidence in me seemed to grow. now in general riding or hacking she will respond to my voice but it all goes to pot when we're jumping. perhaps she's just had a bad experience jumping in the past? Who knows. I'm off to do some jumping now, i've put it off for a few days now, i will try 2 fences as a mini double and see how it goes! Thanks again guys

 

[Kate F.]

She was a nightmare to tack up when i first bought her, i think she was anticipating pain from badly fitting tack in the past. This could be the reason she reared / bolted when i first got on her in the new place (a combination of anticipating pain and being in new surroundings may have pushed her over the edge!)

Could be pain, but could also be problems with her accepting someone/something in the blind spot over her back. This seems a bit more likely, as the saddle itself, even if it didn't fit, would probably only cause pain when the rider got on. If she acted up while tacking up - that sounds more like problems with the blind spot. There are excercises for this on my website - particularly "switching eyes over the back" and "working from the fence". If she had problems with the blind spot, these would be compounded when you got on - especially if she also had pain associations with the rider. A horse won't make the connection of it being the saddle that doesn't fit - they just associate someone getting on with "ouch!!"!

katefarmer - i agree with what you've said BUT in using a 'soft' bit, just a snaffle at the moment, i am having to exert a lot of pressure on it to get her to take any notice. Using a stronger bit that i would use to merely check her with rather than clinging on to would surely do far less damage than a bit where i was continuously on a very tight and restricting contact? I was thinking also about a bit that exerted poll pressure, not sure how she'd react to that but i'm willing to try anything. I will take a look at your website, sounds like you've got some interesting and helpful stuff on there.

I was thinking more of of re-training her to the bit. If you have a look at the article, you'll see what I mean. I'm talking about getting the the horse listening to your energy, and the bit becoming just a refining tool - not the brakes as such. When a horse goes into "got to save my life" mode the adrenalin is running and they just don't feel pain. A harsher bit may work short term for a little while, but unless you've addressed WHY she's behaving in this way in the first place, I think she'll soon start running through everything and anything you put in her mouth. Anyway - have a look and see what you think!

Cheers