The Missed Path. Restarting horses

KP nut

KP nut

I'd rather be riding.
Dec 22, 2008
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Well as Mark's book is not very enlightening on the subject I thought maybe NR wisdom could controb ute to this topoc....

I work with children in care delivering a holistic therapeutic package to each child. When I or my staff first meet them, the key part of the assessment is to find the missing links in their social and emotional development.

We learn most of what we need to know - or at least the precursors of all other skills - in the first 2 years of life. Miss out then and you will have on-going skills deficits in emotional regulation, behavioural control, communication, social interaction and relationships.

Knowledge is like a chain: being reliably soothed as an infant teaches you to be soothable. Being soothable is necessary before you can self soothe. Self soothing is the foundation of emotional self regulation. Emotional self regulation is necessary for problem solving. (You need to stay calm and keep thinking to problem solve). etc etc etc

Similarly being given consistent boundaries is a precursor to develop frustration tolerance. Frustration tolerance is needed for behavioural control. Behavioural control is needed to manage relationships.

Even trust is a skill. A skill we normally learn in infancy but sometimes have to re-learn this if in fact we were abused/harmed and afraid in those first few years so learned to mistrust instead.

So we look for skills and skills deficits across a range of key domains, we identify the gaps and we re-teach those skills within a trusting relationship in a predictable environment. Which brings me onto horses..... (got there in the end!)

I think horsemanship is the same. I think horses sometimes have gaps in their early education which leads to a whole host of other problems later on. My problem is I am not sure how to identify gaps. These are not 'the things the horse can do'. More they are the building blocks on which everything a horse then needs to lean can be built.

Things like:
Trust in humans (if a horse is afraid nothing else will get learnt)
Confidence in self (to be willing to try)
Stress management skills (being able to cope with worry/uncertainty without fleeing)
Problem solving skills (being able to think through a situation and offer responses).
Horse-human Communication skills - (which are probably built on a belief that a) it is possible to communicate with us and b) we are willing to listen. )

So my question is: how to identify these skills or gaps and how to teach them? And am I missing important domains?

Any thoughts?
 
You are the professional - but to be honest the meidcal and psychological truths we had faith in when my kids were little have all been developed or superceded now. I learned behaviourism with my kids and used it on horses but horses and humans are very different. Both in the way they acquire learning and the extent to which they retain it.

Why complicate life? When you say Mark Rashid is not enlightening on the subject could that be because he doesnt hold much store by it.
 
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The frustrating thing is he DOES say we need to work out what went wrong and fill in the gaps. And not just follow a step-by-step restarting guide. Exactly the same way we do with children. You have tp know where and how things went wrong in order for them to then develop the skills that flow from that foundation. He just does not then explain - even in vague terms - how you go about doing that. As you say horses and people are very different so I only use my experience with children to illustrate that the principles are the same. The aim is the same - identify the missing links and fill in the gaps. And although concepts change to a degree, the idea that one acquires skills in a chain of knowledge each dependent on previous links is neither new nor controversial. It's common sense really! Also the things that have changed over the years really are the ways in which people try and teach or help. The methods change not the underlying aims. You can fill in the gaps through social learning (modelling) through behaviourism (reinforcement contingencies) cognitive restructuring (logic and reasonsing) or any one of a number of ways. but the forst step is knwoing what it is you are trying to teach. And I don't even know that with horses!
 
Pretty simple. Expose them to situation gauge the response and act or train accordingly.

Not really rocket science when you think about it. Every new horse I get I test out in different situations as they arise. If they don't react the way I want I train them to, if they do then great. Not really all that conplicated.
 
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If I'm honest I think you're overcomplicating matters. Watch your horse & see where she stands in the herd & how she reacts. When you handle her be aware of your actions & her responses. In my eyes any time you spend with them is training so assess constantly whether she understands & if she doesn't look at how you can change what you're doing so that she does & you get the responses you want. It's too easy to blame, for example, a lack of trust on past experiences but you can only alter now so concentrate on that. Be someone she's comfortable with & has confidence in, in most cases the rest will follow as long as you're consistent, clear & fair.
 
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Maybe so. When I was doing my equine assisted therapy training we had to assess horses on their basic temperament and character based on their reactions to some simple tasks. It was very interesting. They also described a type of horse who was very shut down who they called a 'void' horse. You could not assess their temperament because they were inaccessible. Before I bought Dylan a couple of trainers saw him and said he was like a void. Nothing got through. So I can't help feeling that if I was better at this I would have been able to re -educate him more effectively than I did. He improved a lot with patient consistent handling but it still felt like there was a missing link. Re-education is trickier than just good early education I think and its that I am interested in.
 
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I have to say I concur completely with both MrC and carthorse - you really are looking for answers in areas (human!) that really and truly (IMO) just don't relate to horses! You could and some certainly have, fail young horses badly,and actually made their attitude and behaviour far worse by trying to equate training and ongoing education of the horse with truculent children. Just take the horse that you have in front of you on the day - don't over analyse and try to fit it into a box that is created by your favourite and latest popular horse guru and just get on with the job in hand. With common sense and the most valuable sense of all - affinity with the horse you are dealing with problems and all, will be more positive and a happier outcome than all the airy fairy 'my experience IRL is, so therefore...... ' You have a horse, treat it like a horse and get on with it. ;)
 
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Have to agree with then others. I have never read any of the books or seen any of the trainers you constantly refer to I just as like the others treat what comes out the field that day.

Excellent example. Ginger has loaded since day dot no issues. Last weekend refused point blank took me over half and hour. You would sit and analyse what has happened what changed what were my energy levels etc. Not me got him on went to show. This week got trailer back out took about five minutes then back to normal loading straight away.

No analyse just dealt with it. Same with riding sometimes he is amazing other times borderline dangerous so do a little and get off. But the next day I just get back on as normal forgetting about yesterday's issues.

I rarely analyse anything they do.
 
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Whatever works for you is right for you. I am interested in analysis and my horsemanship depends on it. Writers like Buck Brannaman, Mark Rashid, Ray Hunt, Lucy Rees, Michael Peace, Richard Maxwell changed how I view horses and horsemanship beyond all recognition and I find it endlessly fascinating. But I get that it is not everyone's cup of tea!
 
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I agree with the others in that you are over complicating things but also the principles underpinning what you are saying are very over simplified; development is not just determined by nurture.

I have 2 mares. Aged 5 and 6. I bought them both in October of last year. They were both born on an island and had very little handling although shown as foals. Since then they have lived ‘on the hill’ so to speak. Same genetics, same experiences. Mare 1 is confident, placid, friendly. She is the type who comes straight to you in the field, you can do anything with her and I’ve recently backed her. Mare 2 is so stressy and unpredictable she is a danger to herself and others at times.

The biggest thing I have learned after 30 years with horses is to stop looking for reasons for thing, stop analysing and just deal with what’s in front of you.
 
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Whats happened to trusting your own instincts. If it feels wrong then it probably is and so on. Learning from your own experience.

You say Dylan was void and closed down but to me you didn't give him long enough.

Chanter was from a rescue centre not a rehomibg centre. He was handed over because they couldn't deal with him. It took me a good year to get him and a lot longer for him to trust me. The result was worth it but I went on instinct. If he didn't like something or reacted badly I didnt try and find out why what caused it and when I just worked round it tried different ideas until it clicked.
 
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It is right to analyze a horse, just don't analyze it as it if were human. Horses are prey animals that have flight or fight instincts in their DNA since the beginning of time; it is why they are herd animals and have a social order (pecking order, herd hierarchy) their leader being known as the alpha and which Mark Rashid has referred to in his writings.

I was raised with horses and cattle, and have had four horses most of my adult life. An earlier poster commented that watching how a herd of horses interacts will give you your answers was correct. Take a chair and a book, and spend an entire day watching a small herd. It will show you the psyche of each horse within the herd which, in turn, will tell you the most successful way to mentality handle that horse.

I am nearing the end of a lifetime of horses --- my two remaining "babies" are 21 & 22. One is a bully, the other is so passive I have to them separated, lest the bully push the other into a corner. They have 20+ acres, plenty of room but, if the bully horse gets in a snit, he will run the other horse into the ground.

I deal with them differently. I have had people tell me I don't treat them the same --- well there's a reason for that.

It is right to analyze horses not only for which herd to put them in, but for what careers they may excel in, and also how to handle them. Over-analyzing, IMHO, can get one in more trouble than it can help:)

As far as re-starting a horse and filling in the training holes ---- anyone I know who trains or has done any sort training with rescues, myself included, act as if the horse doesn't know anything and go back to basics. How fast the horse progresses, depends on how much he already knows and where the trust chain was broke before we got, him (or her).
 
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OwnedbyChanter said:
Whats happened to trusting your own instincts. If it feels wrong then it probably is and so on. Learning from your own experience.

You say Dylan was void and closed down but to me you didn't give him long enough.

Chanter was from a rescue centre not a rehomibg centre. He was handed over because they couldn't deal with him. It took me a good year to get him and a lot longer for him to trust me. The result was worth it but I went on instinct. If he didn't like something or reacted badly I didnt try and find out why what caused it and when I just worked round it tried different ideas llkhh.
Click to expand...
Mine had lots of homes before me and some name changes too. He didn't make my life easy initially but nearly two years down the line it was all worth it, a lot of the time he actually needed me to tell him what to do as negotiating anything would of been dangerous, we now are further down the road and we are more of a team than before but still not everything's up for negotiation. X
 
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I cannot decide if Training a horse by others methods, without any thought process from yourself, is lazy or just plain silly. I suppose it gives you an out when it fails, wasn't my fault that 'insert named horse person method here' didn't work

Taking bits and pieces of info and methods and applying it impartially and with relevance gets you further than plugging away with a prescribed set of steps and set methods
 
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To be honest I didn't even get to the end of the OP post before I got bored. I am interested in behavioral things, but not to the point where it is so in depth I lose sight of the horse itself.
I started thinking " eh what" Why is horsemanship based on the analysis of the horse? It sounds like all the sessions are visiting a shrink. Sometimes horses are just, horses.

You like certain trainers and appear to know what they would do, but not what you would do. If a trainer doesn't tell you how to do something you are at a loss.
"He just does not then explain - even in vague terms - how you go about doing that. " None of Mark's books are how to manuals.
To quote a trainer I have just read KF's Dancing With Horses, he actually says that the book shows you and tells you what he does, but he expects you to develop your own instinct and feel.

I don't think my horse is enrolled with the Open University in between rides, but this thread makes me think I should be!
I do not analyze mine, that is making a human judgement, forming an opinion, a perspective that runs the high risk of being wrong. I will make a decision at the time in that moment.
 
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I agree with all the above and a lot of the horsemanship teachings that I have read are about just dealing with what is in front of you as suggested but I think we do have to analyse to some extent, to decide if a certain reaction is a trust issue, a nature issue, a learnt reaction etc so that we can select what method of training is appropriate for that horse in that situation on that day, is that kind of where you were going @KP nut?
That analysis is probably done in seconds for experienced folks, it might take others longer and for those taught to analyse our actions it can make us walk away wondering what made us make that decision in the second :)
 
I somewhat agree with you, KP Nut. Maybe because as a special needs teacher I have observed some of the behaviours you are talking about in my classroom. I have also seen them in horses, especially in horses who were never socialized properly. Horses have to learn to be horses first - especially things like trust, confidence and problem solving skills are best picked up from other horses in a herd. It is possibly very harmful if humans interfere too much and too early. If the process works, it is very easy to make use of the skills they pick up from other horses in building a horse-human relationship. If it does not I am doubtful if any amount of training will make a huge difference. These horses will most likely always be nervous/ spooky and lacking in confidence.
As to analyzing the situation: it depends on where the focus is. I don't find it very helpful to dwell on the past - there is nothing I can do to change it. But I do look closely at the horses behaviour and take time to think about ways to encourage cooperation. A bit like, if my toddler is throwing a tantrum, I will think about if she is tired, hungry, overstimulated or just naughty. And my reaction depends on my interpretation. Sometimes it is very obvious to me what I need to do, but sometimes - especially if the "obvious" strategy does not work, I back off and try to approach the situation from a different angle. So I guess I do analyze my horse - and being able to do that is one of the main advantages I have as a human.
 
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IMO there comes a point in a humans "horsemanship" where they have gathered as much theory as can be helpful in order to confront a new situation that wasn't covered on the theory. I don't believe any one master can teach you everything, they can only give you a box of tools from which you will always have access to in order to deal with whats in front of you. Its up to you to choose the tool and juggle them as necessity dictates in the best way you can.
Contrary to that I also believe that "horsemanship and equitation" are a lifetimes learning and form of art.
There is no book nor "hero" that can cut this short.
 
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Imo opinion no. In my experience those who have trust issues with humans actually bond really well with animals, in some instances better and in preference.

A horse is horse. They don't have the same luggage crap as people carry about. If you still feel you have issues, go and see a specialist. Some of your issues could just because you are you. We don't marry horses, we don't live with them so I can't see the connection here.
 
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