this is a bit long - pls bear with me
i bought Oliver in june this yr - he was v under weight & footsore & generally a bit sad & sorry looking- so hard to read his real character/attitude - he was, unsurprisingly very quiet & good for first couple of weeks - our first attempt at a solo hack - with a foor soldier he know - ended with a bolt back to the yard & a bail from me [i had been told by seller that he happily hacked alone]
the big issues with him are about him buggering off when he feels like it - iniatially when brought in from the field he would on occasions just pull away & gallop back to the gate of his field - he didnt appear to be stressed, would be caught easily & then lead in quietly & the same thing happened when being lunged - i have worked very hard with him over last few months & 95% of the time he now leads in well & lunges well - altho - just to keep me on my toes he did the running back to the field last week - again for no obvious reason - the on-going big issue is working him in our HUUGE schooling field - where he unpredictably - when taken there alone simply runs back to the gate - as with the buggering off in hand - he doesnt seem to be stressed, is easy to catch [ he has on occasion lost his rider at this point, or stop if rider still on him - BUT its potentialy dangerous, scares the pants off me & means that we can only do stuff when other horses are also being schooled [ not always possible]
any ideas folks?
just need to add that whenever he does "go" he is always brought back to the work in hand, riding, leading, lunging - he then settles down happily to the task & seem unconcerned & non-stressed
Sounds to me like he's just doing it cos he can. Have you tried using some kind of pressure halter? My old loan horse used to do a similar thing - when I caught him in the field he would just set his neck and gallop off to the gate, then wait for me to get there to open it and lead nicely to his stable! It was amazing how much difference the pressure halter made he never even tried this while wearing it. I'm pretty sure you can lunge and even ride in some kinds of halters e.g. a dually.
I'm not usually a fan of solving problems with gadgets but in this case I think using a pressure halter is so effective, and won't harm you horse (just don't use it for tying up), so there's just reason not to try it.
I would agree with the above - that he does it because he can. And he gets away with it. Sure you put him back to work afterwards, but he knows he's scared you, so whatever you do afterwards will be less demanding.
I would certainly try a rope pressure halter.
You need to enable him to really 'get' what he is supposed to be doing. If he were mine, I would take him back to the beginning again: Take him to the schooling field. Walk him round in hand - if he's good, praise him and put him back in his stable.
It doesn't matter if you work him for just 5 minutes, so long as he has understood that that is what you do and that he behaves himself.
Build it up slowly, he'll trust you, you'll learn to trust yourself and him and then next summer, you'll be great to together.
When I read this sort of post, or hear these type of comments, I always wonder what the horse would write if it were a member of a forum. In your case I think he'd write this -
I came to my new Mum in June this year. I was a bit skinny because my previous Mum hadn't fed me quite right, and I was a bit footsore, and was generally a bit out of sorts. This new Mum seemed quite nice, and I wanted to settle into a permanent home, so I tried hard to be good for her. Then one day we went out, out beyond the place that I had come to know as home, with a nice person walking with me for company, but I was so scared! It was all new and I was so insecure that I just turned and ran for home! Low and behold my new Mum leapt off me! So she must have been scared too, which proves I was right to run away. She smelled all funny too, I could smell that she was nervous. Anyway, a couple of times when she fetched me from the field I just knew something was wrong, so I ran back to the gate. She would come and get me again, and the smell was back, that nervous smell. Eventually I realised that she got that smell when I did something that scared her. It was me making her scared!! So if I didn't really WANT to do anything I'd just run away, she'd get the scared smell, and I didn't have to do anything too strenuous. Isn't it brill? If she can she arranges my lessons so that there are some of my horse friends around, which is nice, but always, once I have let her know that I can scare her, I behave, as I have her in my control. I don't have to go out into the world on my own, I don't often even have to work on my own, I can do what I like. Well my dear Equine friends what do you think of my fabulous idea? Shouldn't we all train our Mums like this?
When I read this sort of post, or hear these type of comments, I always wonder what the horse would write if it were a member of a forum. In your case I think he'd write this -
I came to my new Mum in June this year. I was a bit skinny because my previous Mum hadn't fed me quite right, and I was a bit footsore, and was generally a bit out of sorts. This new Mum seemed quite nice, and I wanted to settle into a permanent home, so I tried hard to be good for her. Then one day we went out, out beyond the place that I had come to know as home, with a nice person walking with me for company, but I was so scared! It was all new and I was so insecure that I just turned and ran for home! Low and behold my new Mum leapt off me! So she must have been scared too, which proves I was right to run away. She smelled all funny too, I could smell that she was nervous. Anyway, a couple of times when she fetched me from the field I just knew something was wrong, so I ran back to the gate. She would come and get me again, and the smell was back, that nervous smell. Eventually I realised that she got that smell when I did something that scared her. It was me making her scared!! So if I didn't really WANT to do anything I'd just run away, she'd get the scared smell, and I didn't have to do anything too strenuous. Isn't it brill? If she can she arranges my lessons so that there are some of my horse friends around, which is nice, but always, once I have let her know that I can scare her, I behave, as I have her in my control. I don't have to go out into the world on my own, I don't often even have to work on my own, I can do what I like. Well my dear Equine friends what do you think of my fabulous idea? Shouldn't we all train our Mums like this?
I cannot actually believe that you wrote this: how stunningly rude and patronising. I accept that you don't know the whole story but were you trying to be deliberately rude and upset the OP? You make out as though she were incapable and letting him get away with whatever he wants, which is very far from the truth. What a truly idiotic thing to write, childish and unjustified, as well as guaranteed to upset. Not 'cute', not clever, just unhelpful in the extreme. If you have nothing of value to add, refrain from posting. Rubysmum has tried extremely hard with this horse and has given him an amazing home.
__________________ R.I.P. Boomerang 27.5.08. Run free, liebling.
Last edited by cinammontoast; 3rd Nov 2009 at 07:59 PM.
When I read this sort of post, or hear these type of comments, I always wonder what the horse would write if it were a member of a forum. In your case I think he'd write this -
I came to my new Mum in June this year. I was a bit skinny because my previous Mum hadn't fed me quite right, and I was a bit footsore, and was generally a bit out of sorts. This new Mum seemed quite nice, and I wanted to settle into a permanent home, so I tried hard to be good for her. Then one day we went out, out beyond the place that I had come to know as home, with a nice person walking with me for company, but I was so scared! It was all new and I was so insecure that I just turned and ran for home! Low and behold my new Mum leapt off me! So she must have been scared too, which proves I was right to run away. She smelled all funny too, I could smell that she was nervous. Anyway, a couple of times when she fetched me from the field I just knew something was wrong, so I ran back to the gate. She would come and get me again, and the smell was back, that nervous smell. Eventually I realised that she got that smell when I did something that scared her. It was me making her scared!! So if I didn't really WANT to do anything I'd just run away, she'd get the scared smell, and I didn't have to do anything too strenuous. Isn't it brill? If she can she arranges my lessons so that there are some of my horse friends around, which is nice, but always, once I have let her know that I can scare her, I behave, as I have her in my control. I don't have to go out into the world on my own, I don't often even have to work on my own, I can do what I like. Well my dear Equine friends what do you think of my fabulous idea? Shouldn't we all train our Mums like this?
thank you so much for yr inputs - you clearly know the horse so much better than i do - i willl share this with the well qualified RI he also did this with & the very compatent rider on my yard [hunts regulalry & competes an ex-racehorse] who he has also tried to bugger off with
i'm sure a number of people who responded also share yr view that i'm an idiot but they managed to make helpful suggestions that could move us forward rather than just mock me
See I dont feel like that about the post - I obviously dont know Rubysmum personally or the story - but I am sure in many situations this would run true.
I would love to know what Silver is thinking - I find it so complex sometimes, yet she is so straightforward - Im just pants at listening
Silver was awful - bargin, kicking, nipping when I got her, spinning to mount etc etc. She got much better very quickly - and like you say OP was very good the first few weeks with me - apart from being shy, grouchy when tacked up and spinning when mounted (ill fitting saddle, excusable ) - she rode out alone or in company, and then it went to pot.
She realised I was a sticker, so she pushes the boundaries. Having made footage of us for a simple video of her trotting on different reins etc, I hav realised that I am just too soft with her - partly I guess it is fear - she has both bitten me and kicked me successfuly now - so I am wary - generally she just threatens. But I realised if I am bolder with her, although she tries it I get my way and we get on with stuff. I have always insisted on getting my way without the bad manners, but realised the being nice just drags it out longer.
However I cant explain the ridden stuff. She wont move from the barn and if she does she naps badly and bolts for home. I am not fearful, it doesnt phase me - just pees me off. So I cant fathom this out. I get really cross, really firm with her - legs, voice, and yes hands and whip. I also get off and lead - she just drags me home on foot .
So to a certain extent I can get and understand the explanation - and find it useful as it is easier to relate to a written thought pattern than a "he knows he can get away with it" statement, but sometimes that explanation doesnt fit.
Infact I was nervous the first time we went out alone, because I had been told she would rear etc - she went like a dream it was after when I was happy to go out alone that it all went horribley wrong! She will also go out when I am ponying as she seems to know she has to take care of us and is responsible! She turns into a proper little trekking pony - not even excitable or silly or strong!! Like she was born to do it... Perhaps I should school whilst ponying
When I read this sort of post, or hear these type of comments, I always wonder what the horse would write if it were a member of a forum. In your case I think he'd write this -
I came to my new Mum in June this year. I was a bit skinny because my previous Mum hadn't fed me quite right, and I was a bit footsore, and was generally a bit out of sorts. This new Mum seemed quite nice, and I wanted to settle into a permanent home, so I tried hard to be good for her. Then one day we went out, out beyond the place that I had come to know as home, with a nice person walking with me for company, but I was so scared! It was all new and I was so insecure that I just turned and ran for home! Low and behold my new Mum leapt off me! So she must have been scared too, which proves I was right to run away. She smelled all funny too, I could smell that she was nervous. Anyway, a couple of times when she fetched me from the field I just knew something was wrong, so I ran back to the gate. She would come and get me again, and the smell was back, that nervous smell. Eventually I realised that she got that smell when I did something that scared her. It was me making her scared!! So if I didn't really WANT to do anything I'd just run away, she'd get the scared smell, and I didn't have to do anything too strenuous. Isn't it brill? If she can she arranges my lessons so that there are some of my horse friends around, which is nice, but always, once I have let her know that I can scare her, I behave, as I have her in my control. I don't have to go out into the world on my own, I don't often even have to work on my own, I can do what I like. Well my dear Equine friends what do you think of my fabulous idea? Shouldn't we all train our Mums like this?
It's people like you that the equine world don't need.
When I read this sort of post, or hear these type of comments, I always wonder what the horse would write if it were a member of a forum. In your case I think he'd write this -
I came to my new Mum in June this year. I was a bit skinny because my previous Mum hadn't fed me quite right, and I was a bit footsore, and was generally a bit out of sorts. This new Mum seemed quite nice, and I wanted to settle into a permanent home, so I tried hard to be good for her. Then one day we went out, out beyond the place that I had come to know as home, with a nice person walking with me for company, but I was so scared! It was all new and I was so insecure that I just turned and ran for home! Low and behold my new Mum leapt off me! So she must have been scared too, which proves I was right to run away. She smelled all funny too, I could smell that she was nervous. Anyway, a couple of times when she fetched me from the field I just knew something was wrong, so I ran back to the gate. She would come and get me again, and the smell was back, that nervous smell. Eventually I realised that she got that smell when I did something that scared her. It was me making her scared!! So if I didn't really WANT to do anything I'd just run away, she'd get the scared smell, and I didn't have to do anything too strenuous. Isn't it brill? If she can she arranges my lessons so that there are some of my horse friends around, which is nice, but always, once I have let her know that I can scare her, I behave, as I have her in my control. I don't have to go out into the world on my own, I don't often even have to work on my own, I can do what I like. Well my dear Equine friends what do you think of my fabulous idea? Shouldn't we all train our Mums like this?
Rather ignorant,thoughtless comments,not constructive or helpful in any way.
It's people like you that the equine world don't need.
Totally agree with this, how thoughtless and ignorant to other people feelings can you be if you dont have anything positive to say then why bother posting if your not going to help. grow up
__________________
Who ever said nothing is impossible, never tried slamming a revolving door.
I'm no expert and have had my boy a similar time to you. Izzy and I were making good progress, groundwork etc and just this last week or two he has started getting a bit bargy again, nudging and a bit stroppy. Not to the extent Oliver is, but perhaps with both of them, it is that they are feeling more settled, confident, fitter and better within themselves and are pushing the boundaries, seeing what they can get away with.
I was a bit disheartened, today he barged past me out the stable door! But I think I am going to go back to doing groundwork sessions a couple of times a week, as once I started riding him I stopped doing as much groundwork. I think my horse just needs continually reminding of his manners as he is cheeky and will try to push to see where the line is.
Not sure if any of that is any use or just me thinking out loud
Perhaps start by doing the small things where you feel confident and then build up to the things that worry you. I don't think it matters if you take some steps back - if it takes the pressure off. After all, we want to enjoy the horses, not dread what might happen.
I'm no expert and have had my boy a similar time to you. Izzy and I were making good progress, groundwork etc and just this last week or two he has started getting a bit bargy again, nudging and a bit stroppy. Not to the extent Oliver is, but perhaps with both of them, it is that they are feeling more settled, confident, fitter and better within themselves and are pushing the boundaries, seeing what they can get away with.
I agree Tiga, groundwork may be the way to go. Again I'm no expert - I've only had Flip about three months but I think I've had a similar experience. Initially being chucked off we realised my boy was scared and I wasn't instilling confidence. Now it feels like he's starting to push the boundaries, I don't know what his motivation is for this but at the start he was only spooking in response to ghosts in the bushes but the last twice he's tanked after me sitting on him for two minutes and he was getting pretty bargy walking in hand. I've gone back to groundwork at the very good advice of a new friend and already (fingers crossed) he's more chilled, he's listening to me more and it just feels like he respects me a bit more.
I get lost in the fact that my horse is 700kg and I stupidly think he should be in charge! If nothing else groundwork is building my confidence in dealing with him and that's hopefully being passed on to Flip.
Good Luck We're all in the same boat but hopefully will get there by next summer and enjoy lots of lovely long hacks in the sunshine!!!
I dont read Personas post as being rude or patronising. I think she is making a valid point about how horses think. Rubysmum, you said yourself you were scared. Your body will release pheromones (sp) which Oliver will be able to smell.
Perhaps Personas post was a little bit unusually written but I think it was well meant and actually a fair representation of how horses think.
I think its a shame this thread then got carried over to Trot on and some posters there felt it necessary to come here and start being nasty. I realise they were trying to stick up for you RM but what a pity you felt you had to post there complaining instead of asking Persona for an explanation of what she was meaning.
I dont know if there is any history going on here but from what I read on the thread Persona was the one on the end of the rude attack, not you Rubysmum???
I thought that Personas post was very interesting because she (or he) is trying to make a point that you need to look at things from the horses perspective. The horse takes it's lead from the owner and you need to be in charge. When the horse takes over the leadership you end up with them walking all over you.
Please don't be upset or take offence - try to think about what Persona was trying to say.
In my opinion, you need to establish the leadership boundaries between the two of you. The horse needs to understand that you are in charge and he must listen to you. There are various groundwork exercise and approaches that you could take, but I would get an instructor to come out and give you an independent opinion of what is going wrong. The behaviour sounds like it is getting worse and you need to establish control before someone gets hurt, or you lose you confidence completely.
saw this elsewhere and decided to check it out. i also dont think that was a nasty post. she is just writing an account of what the horse is possibly thinking about it all, from the horses perspective. it doesnt read to me as if it is rude or patronizing. i think she makes a valid point about the horses viewpoint, which you probably already knew and considered, but its not in any way derogarory to you, just written in a different style.
I must admit. I don't really see Persona's response as "rude" "patronising" etc etc. I don't really see why others have had to then be rude to Persona on this thread. And they've been really very rude!
She was just saying to look it at from the horses point of view. As for not knowing the horse/owner/history. Rubysmum was asking for advice, on a forum where not everyone know's everyone and their horses. Maybe it wasn't what (other) people want to hear but in no way was it rude. I found it thought provoking and actually it makes sense to look at things from the horses point of view.
I don't think it was insulting at all Rubysmum so please try not to take it as such. I can understand your predicament but can't really offer advice but I do think others on here have given very good advice, re pressure halters etc. and it's always nice to know you're not alone in experiencing these situations. I have been s**t scared of horses and some of their behaviours in the past so I know exactly how you feel!
I really hope you can find a solution to this problem.
I agree, I don't think Personas post was rude etc, I thought it was an interesting opinion maybe from personal experience(?), and as I read it, I didn't think it was mocking Rubysmum in anyway.
I have only been a member a short-time and I am actually shocked at how rude some of the other posts were to Personas, until now it has been very very friendly. Surely we are all allowed our opinions or this would be very boring.
I'm having all sorts of issues with my boy, and actual some of Personas post rang a little too true to me, maybe he does sense I'm scared of riding him....
I have to agree with Skippys mum and Persona, this is the typical behaviour of either a horse which has recently moved yard/new owner, or one which has perhaps been kept deliberately poor so that it doesn't misbehave. This is very common with tbs, people can sometimes only manage them when they are skinny and poor and cannot cope with them as they normally are.
I am sorry you are having these issues with him but this is very very common behaviour so please don't feel picked on or disheartened. He is feeling better physically and is testing your boundaries to see how far he can go. And he is picking up on your tension. And he is winning as he is managing to continue his evasions even though he is disciplined for them. So he feels he can up the anti even further as he now knows by scaring the bejesas out of you he can get his own way.
This is not your fault but it is now your problem. I had the same issues with my mare when i first got her, she was dangerous, aggressive, unpleasant and brutish. She would half kill you, physically attack you and mean it. I got an NH lady out who in under a month turned this nasty bovine into a fairly respectable coloured cob with some semblance of manners. I couldn't do it myself, but she gave me the tools and the bottle to do it. And it has lasted 6 years, as she hasn't reverted back to her bad behaviour.
It doesn't help that it is now autumn, less time, sharper horses. If he were mine, I would rough him off for the winter, and just play with him, lead him for walks, get some training with a competent instructor on how to do ground work and games with him and then think about riding him again in the spring. Take the pressure off yourself and the horse to enable you to re-find your relationship.
This is not copping out of it, it is having a cunning long term plan with aims and goals without rushing, and risking getting hurt. And losing more confidence.
I used to ride out with my friend, she rode a tb type who used to take off with her, she just couldn't hold him. When I rode him, I found him a perfectly nice ride, if slightly wizzy and dizzy, but if you were confident and firm with him he was fine. She was actually a better rider than me, could do decent dressage (not my cup of tea) but I could get a much better tune out of that particular horse. In the end she stopped riding him which was good as he wasn't for her. Sometimes that is how it is, he could feel her tension and would react to it, whereas if he spooked or dived with me he got brought up short and sent on his way - with her, he just set his jaw and off he went. She had the technique but not the confidence on this particular horse, who was not a bad boy at all, he just was a bit wizzy and needed to be ridden in a particular way.
I cannot actually believe that you wrote this: how stunningly rude and patronising. I accept that you don't know the whole story but were you trying to be deliberately rude and upset the OP? You make out as though she were incapable and letting him get away with whatever he wants, which is very far from the truth. What a truly idiotic thing to write, childish and unjustified, as well as guaranteed to upset.
- partly I guess it is fear - she has both bitten me and kicked me successfuly now - so I am wary - generally she just threatens. But I realised if I am bolder with her, although she tries it I get my way and we get on with stuff. I have always insisted on getting my way without the bad manners, but realised the being nice just drags it out longer. 
. 
it was after when I was happy to go out alone that it all went horribley wrong! She will also go out when I am ponying as she seems to know she has to take care of us and is responsible! She turns into a proper little trekking pony - not even excitable or silly or strong!! Like she was born to do it... Perhaps I should school whilst ponying 
Rather ignorant,thoughtless comments,not constructive or helpful in any way.
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