I dont read Personas post as being rude or patronising. I think she is making a valid point about how horses think. Rubysmum, you said yourself you were scared. Your body will release pheromones (sp) which Oliver will be able to smell.
Perhaps Personas post was a little bit unusually written but I think it was well meant and actually a fair representation of how horses think.
I think its a shame this thread then got carried over to Trot on and some posters there felt it necessary to come here and start being nasty. I realise they were trying to stick up for you RM but what a pity you felt you had to post there complaining instead of asking Persona for an explanation of what she was meaning.
I dont know if there is any history going on here but from what I read on the thread Persona was the one on the end of the rude attack, not you Rubysmum???
I totally agree with this comment! Could not have worded it better myself... Believe me if Holly knows she can get away with something she goes the full 9miles with it I am learning a very hard lesson just now with her of being taught to stand up to her and say actually no Holly thats really not acceptable!
__________________ If at first you don't succeed, ask yourself 'Why?'
I dont read Personas post as being rude or patronising. I think its a shame this thread then got carried over to Trot on and some posters there felt it necessary to come here and start being nasty. I dont know if there is any history going on here but from what I read on the thread Persona was the one on the end of the rude attack, not you Rubysmum???
There are some that obviously do find it as said above, aren't there? All internet posts are subjective. TBH, I haven't seen this thread on TO but will scuttle off to have a look in a moment
I don't know anyone on this thread except the OP or if they are on other forums. The only one I know is me-quel surpris! I will just look on the members' list on there to ensure I'm not just being ultra paranoid in thinking this is directed at me.
The point was that RM asked for help and advice, not a somewhat twisted reiteration of what the issues are.
__________________ R.I.P. Boomerang 27.5.08. Run free, liebling.
Rubys mum did not in the original post say that the horse did this also with allegedly more experienced people.
If she had, then the answers that were given might have been different.
Like this horse is a professional mis-behaver and the reason he was poor in the first place was that he has already been passed around several times as no one has been able to challenge and change this behaviour.
I have to say that I am a bit surprised that they are unable to hold onto a horse when they are leading it - that is technique rather than strength. But none of us are there to witness what he does.
It would probably be a good idea of the moderators close this thread which threatens to change the nice atmosphere on NR which has prevailed since the changeover and bring it back to the reasons why a lot of us stopped posting on topics.
I don't know anyone on this thread except the OP or if they are on other forums. The only one I know is me-quel surpris! I will just look on the members' list on there to ensure I'm not just being ultra paranoid in thinking this is directed at me.
Pocket Rocket has posted on both threads, here and Trot On.
As for being paranoid, my reply was not directed at you but I will say I thought your reply was very rude. You commented that you felt Persona was being rude and patronising. Sorry but I felt your reply was far more so. Clearly others have agreed with me.
Surely there are other ways to get your point over?
just want to say, i always look at the horses point of view first and think it is always useful to do so. but as to this thread, if a person puts a problem or a post in the public domain, you have to expect other people to put forward views that they think relevant, but that dont necasarily work for you , or dont pertain to your circumstances ( each person is going to interpret the original post in thier own way) and i hope they dont close the thread, because the problem is still ongoing- i assume, and therefore is yet to be dealt with, but lets everyone agree to sort out the issue that the original poster is having with her horse, and not the content of the replies; it is the owner of the horses perogative to ignore the posts that she doesnt think are relevant. but there could be other people with the same problem, who will read the entire thread, and find a lot of good on-going advice, addresed from all angles.
unfortunately it seems to have gone away from wishing to solve the problems relating to this horse to a points scoring exercise and insults flying everywhere.
i have not read the posts on the other site and don't intend to, it is just a pity that there is so much ill will on this topic.
unfortunately it seems to have gone away from wishing to solve the problems relating to this horse to a points scoring exercise and insults flying everywhere.
i have not read the posts on the other site and don't intend to, it is just a pity that there is so much ill will on this topic.
You're quite right D&T - living up to your name there!
Rubysmum, you havent been rude to Persona and werent rude about her on the other forum.
Perhaps Persona will come back and elaborate on her post - it was very very relevant as far as I could see. Hopefully she will have some solutions that you can use with Oliver.
For me, when I had problems with Arnie, they were solved with nh style groundwork. I have no problems with him on the ground any more - he is an angel. I still havent managed to carry this over to ridden work but am hopeful that the groundwork will eventually solve this too. I am certain that Arnie can smell fear on me - and he reacts accordingly (not well ).
I have had a fair bit of success using PAX spray which helps to mask this smell.
I don't have anything more to add than what Skippy's Mum has so succinctly replied already.
All I will say to the OP is, sometimes the best advice you are given is the advice you object to the most. If you are objecting so strongly to Persona's post because you know deep down that she's right, maybe you need to be a little more open-minded and see what you can learn from her theory. If you object to her post because you think she's completely and utterly wrong, why let it upset you so much?? She stated her opinion, and if you don't agree with it, why not just ignore it and move on. I have to say, sorry, but I think those of you who have so rudely spoken against Persona have sort of missed the point of her post...
Re: the "funny smell" thing. A few weeks ago my boss, her partner and I went to pick up a baby donkey that was being rehomed to a friend. The donkey had never been handled and was proving impossible to catch. The old man who owned him kept insisting that only he and my boss's partner tried to catch it - he said that she and I needed to stay away, because women have a funny smell and we were scaring it Over here in Portugal, where horses have traditionally been the realm of men, and are in many ways still considered to be so, it is not an uncommon opinion that women give off a scent that horses react strangely to. The man wasn't telling us that we needed to take a shower! He was telling us that our female scent was triggering something in the donkey that was making him wary of us. For all I know, that could be exactly the case. It's just a theory, it's nothing to get upset about
I was trying to make the point that the horse has gone through a number of changes in his life recently, which may well be making him feel insecure and afraid. He may be 'running off' to look for it's previous 'Mum' or he may well just be being downright naughty. He may need more 'guidance' from his present owner in order for him to feel safe - perhaps even a sliphead with a bit for leading, so that he is less inclined to run away and more inclined to go with you. He may need much more time and handling from the ground, including just loads of 'together' time while he gets used to his totally new environment and new people, and through this he will have the opportunity to build trust, and from there you can progress to taking him out and about. He needs to know that one of you is in charge, and that it is not him but you, and that he can look to you for leadership. He needs to know that you are there for him when he needs 'strength'.
The 'smell' was with reference to pheramones which every creature and being gives off depending on it's mental state - fear, happiness, contentment etc. Horses CAN smell when their handler/rider is afraid, and when their handler/rider is confident. They can also hear it in your voice and feel it from the tenseness of your body.
Put yourself in his shoes for a while, try to look at things from his point of view. He also quite probably would like a good relationship with you but may not know how to achieve that.
Read the book 'Think Like Your Horse' by Michael Peace and Lesley Bailey.
We know exactly what you meant and it is common sense. Of course horses pick up on our fear, tension and then question whether they should do something or not.
And some do not cope with change particularly well. In this case, it is difficult to know if it is the new circumstances, the fact that he is now in better shape and able to object, is it fear or naughtiness, none of us know which it is, but clearly what he does need is clear and consistent handling.
A trainer who started a couple of youngsters i had said that the key thing with baby horses was that things had to be totally black and white, nothing grey or fuzzy, and i'm pretty sure it applies to any horse really they need to know where they stand with you.
the on-going big issue is working him in our HUUGE schooling field
I don't know how much option you have, but I really would stop riding him in there for now if you possibly can. He's established a pattern of behaviour and it's still working for him one way or another, and there's nothing much you can do in there to prevent it happening. In order to change that pattern you need to change the parameters and take away the option to pee off in the short to medium term by working him in a much smaller enlosure if you can. A school is ideal if you have access to one as it's categorically not a field. This will hopefully help establish new habits.
Definitely look at the groundwork as far as the in hand bolting goes, once you have the initiative leading you'll also have more of a chance to anticipate and preempt any undesirable behaviour. This is something that can get better.
__________________
Yann
'A singular body and a noble spirit, the principal whereof is a loving and dutiful inclination to the service of man' Edward Topsel
I don't know how much option you have, but I really would stop riding him in there for now if you possibly can. He's established a pattern of behaviour and it's still working for him one way or another, and there's nothing much you can do in there to prevent it happening.
My biggest problems with Arnie happen when I try to hack round our local circuit with my neighbour. As Yann says, Arnie has developed a pattern of bad behaviour which was starting to escalate. Funnily enough, I get none of this when I take him away from home and hack out with other friends.
It got a bit uncomfortable when I had to say to my pal that I didnt want to ride out with her till I got my issues sorted but she realises now its not her or her horse thats the problem, its my reaction that is causing the issues we have. It is very tricky though as there are only the 2 of us in the area to hack with.
I am now trying to break the existing patterns and hopefully replace them with a happy, confident pattern of behaviour (expected completion date - July 2011)
It's interesting but I didn't get anything negative from Persona's reply - instead I thought she very cleverly put the situation from the horse's POV and as I am about to put myself in the position of new owner of a fairly green horse, I found it a healthy and useful reminder to think like a horse in a new situation and relying on its senses, rather than logic.
I know that I can feel chemical changes in my body, on my skin, etc. when I am afraid or anxious - so why wouldn't an animal that relies much more on those senses than we do pick up those things too? And why wouldn't an animal in a strange place with a new "leader" test the boundaries?
I agree with those here who have advised the OP to focus on lots of groundwork - grooming, walking in hand, maybe some lunging/loose schooling - but in a smaller space. I'd maybe avoid patterns/situations where he has tested you before (so no lunging in the huge schooling field) and work on creating new, positive associations with you/his environment. Can you long-line him, for instance?
Think everybody here has said much of what needs to be said and cant add anything new or more helpful - but did want to add (think someone else suggested this) well worth trying Pax. Have used this many moons ago with a great deal of success - and have recently got some more to use when handling/riding JJ when he is in one of his more skittish moods.
Certainly seems to help fool him into thinking I am the very calm, in control, boss! Couldnt actually be further from the truth - but does seem disguise my terrified pheremones and rather quivering cheerful and matter of fact voice
__________________
Whoever said money can't buy happiness didn't know where to buy a horse!
I had a similar sort of situation when I first got my horse. Initially she would not go out to the field and would bolt back to the yard. This was very difficult to deal with considering it was quite a walk to the field the horses were in. Not to mention frustrating when I got all the way to the field and she just bolted straight back!! I was only 13 at the time and was not very strong and always needed help puting her out. It was a confidence thing. She hadn't settled in with the herd and felt more comfortable in her stable. However, once she did find her place in the herd the opposite happened. She was quite happy out with her friends and didn't want to come in and would bolt back to the field! I believe this was because she had learned she had got away with it before. I just had to get help bringing her in (thankfully as she was my first horse I kept her at a RS and help was always on hand) and she eventually settled down and was generally fine. I also made sure that sometimes I brought her in just to have a feed or something nice, rather than to always work. She could certainly still be a bit of a handful mind you but she did get better! She too had issues hacking out alone and leaving the yard and I had to hack out in company and work on building her confidence. The hacking out alone thing was never really perfected to be honest but she did get better.
I think alot of it was also to do with her relationship with me. I would definitely say it took a good year (or perhaps more) to develop a good relationship with her.
Gina - in winter when grass is scarce, is it possible for you to put a small pile of hay out in the field for him so that going to the field becomes 'worth' it? Or if not how about giving him a treat once he has walked into the field? If, like me, you are not generally in favour of giving '***-bits' perhaps you could carry a small bucket with you to put the treat into before giving it to him? Or keep a small bucket by the gate? I realise neither of these ideas may be of use if you're on a big yard though.
). 
Over here in Portugal, where horses have traditionally been the realm of men, and are in many ways still considered to be so, it is not an uncommon opinion that women give off a scent that horses react strangely to. The man wasn't telling us that we needed to take a shower! He was telling us that our female scent was triggering something in the donkey that was making him wary of us. For all I know, that could be exactly the case. It's just a theory, it's nothing to get upset about 
)
) well worth trying Pax. Have used this many moons ago with a great deal of success - and have recently got some more to use when handling/riding JJ when he is in one of his more skittish moods. 
Linear Mode
